I split probably 10 aluminum arrows before going carbon fiber, but only had the one split fiber arrow, and the vast majority of my releases were fiber arrows. 100's of broken nocks, even took the fletching off a few. But just the one split arrow, never seen anyone else split a carbon arrow personally. But there were always a couple at the range on the wall. Maybe I wasn't as good as I thought, lol. my groups were almost always completely touching.
Precision Shooting Reality
- Thread starter JEC
- Start date
I split probably 10 aluminum arrows before going carbon fiber, but only had the one split fiber arrow, and the vast majority of my releases were fiber arrows. 100's of broken nocks, even took the fletching off a few. But just the one split arrow, never seen anyone else split a carbon arrow personally. But there were always a couple at the range on the wall. Maybe I wasn't as good as I thought, lol. my groups were almost always completely touching.
Out of 13 shooters at my Tactical fun day, one guy shot one group out of 5 (25 ) 5 shot groups. Shot MOA
Thats 60 5 shot groups! with Tactical Gear.
One group was .77 there abouts. Everone shot well but not MOA.
Its easy to shoot a group under MOA with teh right gun and right conditions, its not easy to do this under pressure, or even to repeat it.
Thats as honest as I can be.
My BR F-class guns are a different storry, but they shoot them selves, any one of us can shoot moa with them, off a bag and stand, as you only touch the trigger.
Thats 60 5 shot groups! with Tactical Gear.
One group was .77 there abouts. Everone shot well but not MOA.
Its easy to shoot a group under MOA with teh right gun and right conditions, its not easy to do this under pressure, or even to repeat it.
Thats as honest as I can be.
My BR F-class guns are a different storry, but they shoot them selves, any one of us can shoot moa with them, off a bag and stand, as you only touch the trigger.
I finally settled on a load with my Cooper Classic 17FB (18.9gr Benchmark with 20gr V-Max). I put a nickle on the target and caught the edge of it with the first round and the other 4 I aimed lower. I pulled one shot, otherwise it would have been my best group to date. The distance from the muzzle to the target was 101yds as per my rangefinder. For something considered to be a 'sporter' rifle I'm happy. Now I need to find some gophers and to work on my form. The target has 1" squares.
Is that an "underbridge dweller" or gecko45 I smell on here somewhere?
I wonder when were gonna get some definition into the quantity of rounds in a 1/4 moa calc, (I hope its more than 1, regardless it would be a great sales pitch if you ever decided to put it up for sale).
Sadly Im more in the 1 MOA class myself, but its nice to leave room for improvement.
I wonder when were gonna get some definition into the quantity of rounds in a 1/4 moa calc, (I hope its more than 1, regardless it would be a great sales pitch if you ever decided to put it up for sale).
Sadly Im more in the 1 MOA class myself, but its nice to leave room for improvement.
I know more than A few Shooters who keep no records, shoot only 3 rounds at a target, and only remember the tightest groups (3 shots).
I know one guy who will allow himself to be impressed by the extream spread and standard deviation of a three round group!
When he gets one of these "wonder loads", he promptly goes home and loads 30-40 more and expects the load to Perform miracles at 3-500 yards.
When he works Up a load, he refuses to shoot every round (that he is testing) through his chrony to get a larger "average group" sample.
This same guy goes crazy if his group is 1/8" to the left or right of dead center verticle!
If its not perfect, he has 0% confidence in his rifle/load combo.
When he goes out the next day and shoots another group, more times than not the group will print in a slightly different spot. This drives him crazy! Lol!
I try to explain to him that "conditions" can cause this variation, and dont sweat it. Just shoot the rifle and learn to understand how different days can affect your loads.
It can get very frustrating trying to help a person who has too much pride to admit he is just doesnt FULLY understand the "REALITIES" of shooting.
When I go out to the range and shoot, I seldom have any serious problems with my gear/setup. If I do, I have the level of understanding that allows me to "normally" fix or adjust to the condition. And I can salvage something out of the day. Still learn something. I attribute this to confidence gained by range/shooting time.
There is no better learning tool than experience.
As far a shooting MOA groups, most of my firearms are capable of it.
Sometimes "I" am not. I may not be able to read the conditions adequately that day.
Some days, I cant do anything wrong, and shoot way better than normal! I love those days!
A shooter just has to know what to expect from himself and his chosen equipment.
And a shooter should always PUSH THEMSELVES to do better ,and learn.
Learning is what keeps this great passion of shooting fresh, and maintains my drive to persue it!
Good thread guys!
Straight shootin, and keep it fun!
I know one guy who will allow himself to be impressed by the extream spread and standard deviation of a three round group!
When he gets one of these "wonder loads", he promptly goes home and loads 30-40 more and expects the load to Perform miracles at 3-500 yards.
When he works Up a load, he refuses to shoot every round (that he is testing) through his chrony to get a larger "average group" sample.
This same guy goes crazy if his group is 1/8" to the left or right of dead center verticle!
If its not perfect, he has 0% confidence in his rifle/load combo.
When he goes out the next day and shoots another group, more times than not the group will print in a slightly different spot. This drives him crazy! Lol!
I try to explain to him that "conditions" can cause this variation, and dont sweat it. Just shoot the rifle and learn to understand how different days can affect your loads.
It can get very frustrating trying to help a person who has too much pride to admit he is just doesnt FULLY understand the "REALITIES" of shooting.
When I go out to the range and shoot, I seldom have any serious problems with my gear/setup. If I do, I have the level of understanding that allows me to "normally" fix or adjust to the condition. And I can salvage something out of the day. Still learn something. I attribute this to confidence gained by range/shooting time.
There is no better learning tool than experience.
As far a shooting MOA groups, most of my firearms are capable of it.
Sometimes "I" am not. I may not be able to read the conditions adequately that day.
Some days, I cant do anything wrong, and shoot way better than normal! I love those days!
A shooter just has to know what to expect from himself and his chosen equipment.
And a shooter should always PUSH THEMSELVES to do better ,and learn.
Learning is what keeps this great passion of shooting fresh, and maintains my drive to persue it!
Good thread guys!
Straight shootin, and keep it fun!
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Powderfinger61
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- Nova Scotia
Im pretty sure a Goon Spoon isnt going to cut it with this thread, i think its time to bring in the big iron, a 450 track hoe. That equipment should be able to keep up with the Bull Shyt in this thread
Rest is a SEB with a SEB bag
You, sir, are an A-Hole of the first degree. And I say that with the utmost respect.
Sorry this is a bit off topic but that rest gives me a wet spot in my panties everytime I see it.
I could not put in the 10 month wait required to get one so I opted for a Farley head with custom base instead.
- Location
- Richmond, BC
Apologies for digging up old threads, but threads like these are real eye-openers for noobs like me. The wifey bought me a 700p for Christmas, and thought I was going to be the international sniper. I’d read a few articles about how this rifle was capable of 1 MOA out of the box so I was pretty excited. By the way, I’m so new, I only recently learned what MOA meant. Just to make sure, it means a 1in group at 100 yards or 2.908cm at 100 meters?).
So I take my new rifle out to the range, and try out one of the many “break-in” methods, and also try to get my scope pointed in the general direction the bullets are going. I try to remove as many variables as possible (ie, shooter error) and try to remember the principles of marksmanship. I put some load on the bipod by applying some pressure forwards as I was taught for machine guns (I know, the 700 is not a machine gun, but the only firearm I had experience with that had a bipod was the C6 and C9). I also rested the stock on a sandbag, and pulled the stock into my shoulder (or was it push my shoulder into the stock?) with as little strain as possible, all while trying to retain a natural body alignment in relation to the rifle.
All this stuff seemed to work with my C7 as I nailed a 69 out of 70 score on my last range test (overconfidence starting to brew here), so I was expecting to get some decent groups with my new bolt gun. To get it to print on the target sheet, I let my first round off at 50 meters. Setting the scope at zero was a little off, but I adjusted the windage and elevation on my Bushnell 6500 4.5-30 x 50mm and my second round was dead centre of the Canada Ammo target sheet I brought with me. I’m starting to get really confident now, but my focus is still on breaking in the rifle properly so spent more time putting patches through the barrel than rounds.
Anyway, I’ve managed a 3 round clover at 50 meters, so in my head, I’m already making plans to apply for the CF Sniper team. I decide to test out my new found sniper skills and direct my attention to the target sheet I had set up at 100 meters. The rounds are landing in a group that’s about the size of a fist. Ok, maybe it’s because the barrel isn’t broken in yet, or maybe it some freak gusts of wind down by the target sheet, or maybe the ammo, it certainly couldn’t be me, the Marksman waiting for his Cross Rifles badge for his DEUs because I shot 69 out of 70 with my C7 (completely ignoring the fact that I just had to hit the target, not necessarily get precision groups).
Well, it’s on paper, and it’s the size of a fist, let’s see how well the rifle does at 200 meters. I get minute- of-pie plate. WTF. At 300 meters, I get better groupings with my C7 (maybe half a pie plate, haha!). Automatically I assume my 700 is flawed. Ego deflated, head hung low, I’m too embarrassed to make eye to eye contact with Collin, the RO at the PCDFHC range, as I try to sneak off the line to go home.
I get home, start looking online and begin to read about ammo. I just discover that the precision rifle aspect of my gun hobby is probably going to cost more than the bottomless money pit I call my AR. Up until now, I’ve been shooting the cheapest ammo I can find. Since my crappy eyes can’t see past 50 meters without magnification, cheap ammo worked out to that range in my AR, and I never had my Norc M14 dialed in properly until recently. Using the cost of the Norc 7.62x51mm as a base, I sourced out my “fancy precision” ammo based on that cost, and dug up PPU 145gr .308 (obviously, I should have done a bit more research before heading off to the range). A few more visits to the LGS and I’m beginning to realize, that $hit ammo could result in poor performance (at least I hoped it was the ammo). So, a 20 round box of PPU can be had for as low as $15, but if I want the performance I’ve been reading about, I could be looking at going as high as $46.50 for Federal Premium .308 Sierra Matchkings. This is going to be an expensive hobby. Now I have to start thinking about getting into reloading and all the rest of it if I don’t want to blow $46.50 for a box of 20.
Well, anyway, that’s been my experience with the reality of precision shooting so far. I’m not sure if spending $46 will tighten up my groups to 1 MOA until the next time I go to the range, but a lot of noobs like me think that just because we get a bolt action rifle with the words Police, or Military or Tactical stamped on the side, throw some glass on it, we’re going to be instant snipers. Not quite the reality. It looks like a steep learning curve, and I’m looking straight up at a skyscraper. But still, it looks like a lot of fun, and I’m looking forward to learning the aspects of precision shooting. Hopefully one day I’ll be able to produce groupings a bit better than I did my first trip out.
So I take my new rifle out to the range, and try out one of the many “break-in” methods, and also try to get my scope pointed in the general direction the bullets are going. I try to remove as many variables as possible (ie, shooter error) and try to remember the principles of marksmanship. I put some load on the bipod by applying some pressure forwards as I was taught for machine guns (I know, the 700 is not a machine gun, but the only firearm I had experience with that had a bipod was the C6 and C9). I also rested the stock on a sandbag, and pulled the stock into my shoulder (or was it push my shoulder into the stock?) with as little strain as possible, all while trying to retain a natural body alignment in relation to the rifle.
All this stuff seemed to work with my C7 as I nailed a 69 out of 70 score on my last range test (overconfidence starting to brew here), so I was expecting to get some decent groups with my new bolt gun. To get it to print on the target sheet, I let my first round off at 50 meters. Setting the scope at zero was a little off, but I adjusted the windage and elevation on my Bushnell 6500 4.5-30 x 50mm and my second round was dead centre of the Canada Ammo target sheet I brought with me. I’m starting to get really confident now, but my focus is still on breaking in the rifle properly so spent more time putting patches through the barrel than rounds.
Anyway, I’ve managed a 3 round clover at 50 meters, so in my head, I’m already making plans to apply for the CF Sniper team. I decide to test out my new found sniper skills and direct my attention to the target sheet I had set up at 100 meters. The rounds are landing in a group that’s about the size of a fist. Ok, maybe it’s because the barrel isn’t broken in yet, or maybe it some freak gusts of wind down by the target sheet, or maybe the ammo, it certainly couldn’t be me, the Marksman waiting for his Cross Rifles badge for his DEUs because I shot 69 out of 70 with my C7 (completely ignoring the fact that I just had to hit the target, not necessarily get precision groups).
Well, it’s on paper, and it’s the size of a fist, let’s see how well the rifle does at 200 meters. I get minute- of-pie plate. WTF. At 300 meters, I get better groupings with my C7 (maybe half a pie plate, haha!). Automatically I assume my 700 is flawed. Ego deflated, head hung low, I’m too embarrassed to make eye to eye contact with Collin, the RO at the PCDFHC range, as I try to sneak off the line to go home.
I get home, start looking online and begin to read about ammo. I just discover that the precision rifle aspect of my gun hobby is probably going to cost more than the bottomless money pit I call my AR. Up until now, I’ve been shooting the cheapest ammo I can find. Since my crappy eyes can’t see past 50 meters without magnification, cheap ammo worked out to that range in my AR, and I never had my Norc M14 dialed in properly until recently. Using the cost of the Norc 7.62x51mm as a base, I sourced out my “fancy precision” ammo based on that cost, and dug up PPU 145gr .308 (obviously, I should have done a bit more research before heading off to the range). A few more visits to the LGS and I’m beginning to realize, that $hit ammo could result in poor performance (at least I hoped it was the ammo). So, a 20 round box of PPU can be had for as low as $15, but if I want the performance I’ve been reading about, I could be looking at going as high as $46.50 for Federal Premium .308 Sierra Matchkings. This is going to be an expensive hobby. Now I have to start thinking about getting into reloading and all the rest of it if I don’t want to blow $46.50 for a box of 20.
Well, anyway, that’s been my experience with the reality of precision shooting so far. I’m not sure if spending $46 will tighten up my groups to 1 MOA until the next time I go to the range, but a lot of noobs like me think that just because we get a bolt action rifle with the words Police, or Military or Tactical stamped on the side, throw some glass on it, we’re going to be instant snipers. Not quite the reality. It looks like a steep learning curve, and I’m looking straight up at a skyscraper. But still, it looks like a lot of fun, and I’m looking forward to learning the aspects of precision shooting. Hopefully one day I’ll be able to produce groupings a bit better than I did my first trip out.
ultimate_monkey
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- victoria BC
^^^ haha thanks, that was a good read..
sounds like youre really starting to grab the reality of whats involved in precision shooting, it really isnt as simple as a bolt gun with glass and youre off to the races.. Seriously consider getting a good reloading set up, it will cut the cost of shooting match grade ammo in 1/2 atleast. even less if you buy stuff in bulk..
the FGMM is pretty much the standard of store bought quality target ammo, so it probably would help some, but with out a solid base its expensive noise really. the 700s are pretty damn good out of the box rifle, 99% of the time they are capable of moa or sub MOA shooting with the right ammo / hand loads.
the simplest things, as you seem to have caught on, is where it all starts.
natural point of aim
load the bipod
breathing
tiger control
once you have those down, shooting 100 is the same as shooting 1000, with the exception of having to read the wind.
if you haven't checked out magpul - art of the precision rifle, id suggest giving it a watch, in the beginning, the go over the basics as rifle set up etc... from then on its basically a commercial for horus vision, with some wind formulas tossed in haha. but might help you out some
sorry for all over the place ans short wording, im on my phone
sounds like youre really starting to grab the reality of whats involved in precision shooting, it really isnt as simple as a bolt gun with glass and youre off to the races.. Seriously consider getting a good reloading set up, it will cut the cost of shooting match grade ammo in 1/2 atleast. even less if you buy stuff in bulk..
the FGMM is pretty much the standard of store bought quality target ammo, so it probably would help some, but with out a solid base its expensive noise really. the 700s are pretty damn good out of the box rifle, 99% of the time they are capable of moa or sub MOA shooting with the right ammo / hand loads.
the simplest things, as you seem to have caught on, is where it all starts.
natural point of aim
load the bipod
breathing
tiger control
once you have those down, shooting 100 is the same as shooting 1000, with the exception of having to read the wind.
if you haven't checked out magpul - art of the precision rifle, id suggest giving it a watch, in the beginning, the go over the basics as rifle set up etc... from then on its basically a commercial for horus vision, with some wind formulas tossed in haha. but might help you out some
sorry for all over the place ans short wording, im on my phone
- Location
- Vancouver Island
Very enjoyable writeup, and it sounds like you've got a great attitude to take with you to the playing field. Stick with the sport - it's not cheap, but it is fun and rewarding (or can be, depending on the day...
!
- Location
- Richmond, BC
Thanks for the support guys, I'm really looking forward to my next range trip. It's such a different experience than with my AR, not that I don't enjoy throwing rounds down range as fast as I can. But I found sitting behind my 700, controlling my breathing and taking my time, almost therapeutic and meditative in a way. I had this real Zen thing going on, haha!
ultimate_monkey
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- victoria BC
where abouts in BC are you??
- Location
- Richmond, BC
Vancouver. The closest outdoor range is Port Coquitlam District Hunting and Fishing Club, maxes out at 200 meters. I'd like to try further one day, and I heard there's an our door range that goes out to 300....maybe it was in Maple Ridge?
- Location
- Richmond, BC
Thanks for the heads up, but I guess it will be a while before I graduate to that range anyway. Mission District Rod and Gun Club, right? I think one of my friends is a member there so if/when I can sort out my groupings at 200m, I'll ask him if he can bring me as a guest (looks like members and guests only).
More BC shooters? What the hell, I guess I should be looking at more rod and gun clubs in the lower mainland but have yet to find any. I hate be rude, but I don't really wanna be an RO for a club for a day, I just wanna get out and shoot. There is also that 600m range in Abby isn't there?
Only 600 metre range in the LML is Volks in Chilliwack. It is a DND range not open to the general public, BCRA has a few F class shoots during the year but you have to be a member.
- Location
- Richmond, BC
Ah, Volks...shot C6, C7, and C9 there, got gassed and if I'm not mistaken tossed a few C13s (or was that another place?).
Mister Donut - I think if you check the "Challenges" that are stickied towards the top of the Precision section, you will find that few (probably none) of the successful posters were using "out of the box" rifles to maintain under 1/2MOA ...and a minority that were chambered above 243 caliber. That seems to be another "reality" for the CHALLENGE distances. And in the "factory heavy barrel" category, it looks like the reality creeps above 1/2MOA for most of us mortals.
A dozen years ago, your post experience could have been written by me! Lots of trigger time later, some handloading---and your story will change.
A dozen years ago, your post experience could have been written by me! Lots of trigger time later, some handloading---and your story will change.
