Smith and Wesson M&P 15/22

Paul Morrison said:
You rely on them for approval, you probably have to be patient.



Its certainly not illegal for the RCMP to restrict the trade in firearms in order to carry out their legislated mandate under the Firearms act of classifying firearms.
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It certainly would be if it was an undue period of time. Sure, they have a legislated mandate and they must be given a reasonable time period inwhich to do their job. Everyone knows that. What we're talking about here is unreasonable and no doubt deliberate.
 
An unreasonable amount of time would give you grounds for a writ of mandamus, it would not give grounds for an action in tort for intentional interference in economic relations.
 
Range report

RANGE REPORT: MP 15/22

Put a few mags through it today. Nice ergos, feels good. Nice fit and finish. Using an Aimpoint worked very well. Using Federal bulk ammo no FTF at all, accurate out to 50 yards no problem...gophers were not escaping this puppy, that's for sure. I know I got at least 20 of them. ;)

The trigger was nice for a rifle in this price range, as far as my experience goes anyways. I've not handled or shot too many AR's so I can't give an honest or really knowledgeable comparison. I do like it much better than the factory Ruger 10/22 trigger though.....smoother IMHO.









So....any news yet on if we can get these yet??? ;) :)


(I was shooting it in Montana today with an owner after the gun show in Medicine Lake....hahaha)
 
Backwoods said:
RANGE REPORT: MP 15/22

Put a few mags through it today. Nice ergos, feels good. Nice fit and finish. Using an Aimpoint worked very well. Using Federal bulk ammo no FTF at all, accurate out to 50 yards no problem...gophers were not escaping this puppy, that's for sure. I know I got at least 20 of them. ;)

The trigger was nice for a rifle in this price range, as far as my experience goes anyways. I've not handled or shot too many AR's so I can't give an honest or really knowledgeable comparison. I do like it much better than the factory Ruger 10/22 trigger though.....smoother IMHO.


So....any news yet on if we can get these yet??? ;) :)


(I was shooting it in Montana today with an owner after the gun show in Medicine Lake....hahaha)
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Man, thats just mean, man!!!!
 
So if these come as restricted...how does one challenge the classification in court or get it to court as an owner?

Get stopped with it in a 'non-restricted' scenario...eg: shooting gophers, and then take that charge to court and fight the classification there with a non-variant argument? Or do you just file some kind of legal suit or claim with the court system and start there?
 
So once it is classified that's it unless the importer challenges it?

So if I want to challenge it I have to import it myself? Or hope that one of the business importers take issue with it?

Obviously I am hoping they are NR, but I think the stalling says it all....can anyone say "T-97 = MP15/22"?
 
ATTN -- Paul

This is starting to become more of a frustration ...

Paul -- It's been quite a while.. Has the JOP reached a decision?? We gotta be coming up on 60 days soon since the Milton hearing... :confused:
 
I wouldn't necessarily rely on the opinion of just one individual as far as the legalities or due process regarding law - regardless of how knowledgable one would appear to be.

Sorry, I ain't buying the argument that it's up to the original importer of any firearm to challenge a firearm's classification.
 
Im not buying into that argument either ... But he has been keeping a close eye on the proceedings and I dont recall any recent posts of it... However, I do believe it to be a bit of a stepping stone (amongst others) regarding classification issues here in Canada... Either way, I was only checking in on this thread to see the latest news (if any) at the time...
 
how about that ruger sr22? looks pretty sweet, read great reviews, and it's non-restricted :) sorry to hijack, in the eyes of our masters - if it looks scary, then it's dangerous, if it's dangerous and scary looking, it's restricted - or even prohibited just like the T97.

fight the power.
 
So once it is classified that's it unless the importer challenges it?

So if I want to challenge it I have to import it myself? Or hope that one of the business importers take issue with it?
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Yes, yes, yes.

The problem is 'standing' you cannot bring a challenge unless you can demonstrate you were affected by the decision. Unless you try to transfer one and get denied, you do not have standing.

Paul -- It's been quite a while.. Has the JOP reached a decision?? We gotta be coming up on 60 days soon since the Milton hearing...
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Not a JOP, a superior court judge (binding on all superior and provincial courts throughout Canada). No decision yet, AFAIK.
 
Sorry, I ain't buying the argument that it's up to the original importer of any firearm to challenge a firearm's classification.
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In administrative law you have to have standing to bring a case. This means you have to demonstrate that you have been personally affected by a decision by a government decision maker.

An importer can demonstrate this, because they have had a decision rendered related to a product they sell. You could bring a challenge if you had one and tried to register it, but you can't do this without importing it. Absent that, you don't have standing.

The rule requiring standing is to prevent legal busy-bodies from annoying government to no end by bringing suits to advance social causes. Only someone who is affected by a decision can bring a challenge.
 
well I would consider myself affected. I want to hunt gophers with my rifle, but it's restricted and I am only allowed to go to an approved range.
 
well I would consider myself affected. I want to hunt gophers with my rifle, but it's restricted and I am only allowed to go to an approved range.
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If you bought it as a restricted, you don't have standing. You only have standing if they change its status on you. ie. bought as restricted, reclassified prohib, or bought non-restricted, and they reclassified as restricted. Or... if they refuse to issue you a certificate for it.
 
And we hit yet another week of prohibition by indecision.

Now I am not heading off on another rant about the sky falling, or the end being nigh, or other paranoid stuff....but does anyone actually believe the RCMP can't get their heads out of theier asses long enough to make a decision (even an unfriendly one) on this gun?

Who wants to bet this is going to be the new strategy with firearms that are not "PC"....delay, confuse, obstruct, entangle in red tape...I bet the SCAR will be next.
 
IMHO they are waiting for a decision on Henderson before they decide if it's restricted or not.

Lets be honest, they (the RCMP FRT Lab) really want it to be Restricted, but if Henderson gets a favorable decision (the Higher court upholds the lower courts decision) then they would have to issue an FRT for the 15/22 as a non-restricted. The Henderson case gives precidence in all future (and past, paul??) cases having to do with firearms of this nature, ie: .22lr semi-auto copys of full auto/ prohib firearms, that are not specifically named in the act as prohibs. (Paul??)

Their (the RCMP FRT Lab's) only option at that point is to get the current government to list it as a 'prohib' by amending the F.A. to include the 'S&W M&P 15/22' to the Prohibited list (put it in the same class as an AK-47), which by the way, does not need to go before the house to be voted on, it can be acomplished via an 'order in council' basically they can do it as 'house keeping' "keeping" the "jargon" in the act up to date (Paul??).

So best case senario IF the long gun registry is not repealed and Henderson WINS; The M&P 15/22 will only be non-restricted untill the Libs get back in power and change the regs so that all semi auto, 22's will be restricted and or Prohibs and give it another 8 to 10 yrs and we will be in the same boat as the guys out there with full auto fireams..... SOL and unable to get a ATT to take your prized possessions to the range.

I finally gave up waiting about 2 months ago...... I bought the M&P 15 (yes the .223 version), and a CMMG .22 conversion. I'll buy the M&P 15/22 if it comes in as non-restricted, if it's restricted..... I have a .22lr conversion for my already restricted AR

I walk into my local g-store 3 or 4 days a week. With-in 2 days of him getting them I'll know if I'm getting one.......

Cheers!
 
notsorichguy said:
IMHO they are waiting for a decision on Henderson before they decide if it's restricted or not.

Lets be honest, they (the RCMP FRT Lab) really want it to be Restricted, but if Henderson gets a favorable decision (the Higher court upholds the lower courts decision) then they would have to issue an FRT for the 15/22 as a non-restricted. The Henderson case gives precidence in all future (and past, paul??) cases having to do with firearms of this nature, ie: .22lr semi-auto copys of full auto/ prohib firearms, that are not specifically named in the act as prohibs. (Paul??)

Their (the RCMP FRT Lab's) only option at that point is to get the current government to list it as a 'prohib' by amending the F.A. to include the 'S&W M&P 15/22' to the Prohibited list (put it in the same class as an AK-47), which by the way, does not need to go before the house to be voted on, it can be acomplished via an 'order in council' basically they can do it as 'house keeping' "keeping" the "jargon" in the act up to date (Paul??).

So best case senario IF the long gun registry is not repealed and Henderson WINS; The M&P 15/22 will only be non-restricted untill the Libs get back in power and change the regs so that all semi auto, 22's will be restricted and or Prohibs and give it another 8 to 10 yrs and we will be in the same boat as the guys out there with full auto fireams..... SOL and unable to get a ATT to take your prized possessions to the range.

I finally gave up waiting about 2 months ago...... I bought the M&P 15 (yes the .223 version), and a CMMG .22 conversion. I'll buy the M&P 15/22 if it comes in as non-restricted, if it's restricted..... I have a .22lr conversion for my already restricted AR

I walk into my local g-store 3 or 4 days a week. With-in 2 days of him getting them I'll know if I'm getting one.......

Cheers!
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What you're saying doesn't make sense. If the RCMP's "official" position that this rifle is a variant of the basic AR design and should be classified as restricted, then they couldn't possibly have grounds for petitioning any governing body to have the rifle prohibited by OIC. They can't have it both ways.

Having a firearm prohibited by OIC isn't as easy as you think it is. Since one of the main criteria for prohibition is determining that a firearm has a "non-sporting" purpose, it is highly unlikely anyone would be willing to prohibit this firearm on that basis.

When Bill C-68 came out years ago, there was an initial effort to prohibit AR-15's on the basis of "non-sporting" purposes but it was readily proven the the AR DID have a sporting purpose as it was widely used in government sanctioned competition through the DCRA and Provincial Rifle Associations.

How could the government claim that the AR didn't have a legitimate sporting purpose when in fact it was endorsing its use through co-operation (by way of the military) with civilian shooting organizations? It couldn't and that's why the AR was saved from prohibition.

So, if they did try to plug that the firearm should be considered prohibited, they'd have to abandon their position that it's a variant of the AR design and that's not going to happen for a variety of reasons.
 
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