35 Whelen/358 Norma

[X-fan]

Any difference in killing power between the Whelan and the Norma is between our ears.
I have owned a 35 Whelan and feel it is all a 35 needs to be, but I have always wanted a 358 Norma so that gets my vote.

Will the 35Whelan reach 2600?
Probably, but not at standard pressures (60,000 psi) so at the very least brass life will be short. I will also bet my skinny ass that groups will be all over the map compared to 2400-2500fps.

I don't understand what the big difference and why anyone would feel the need to push that last 100fps?
For a sanity check 250 grains at 2650fps it he 338Winchester magnum at maximum sammi pressure.... (Ya, I know selected loads will go faster).

For a guy that wants 2600fps from a 250gr I would recommend the 358Norma.

As a huge fan of Bob Hagel I can tell you one of his loads stuck my bolt shut when I blindly waded in..... and Hagel was one hell of a lot more ballisticly savvy than old Elmer.

 

[Johnn Peterson]

Any difference in killing power between the Whelan and the Norma is between our ears.
I have owned a 35 Whelan and feel it is all a 35 needs to be, but I have always wanted a 358 Norma so that gets my vote.

Will the 35Whelan reach 2600?
Probably, but not at standard pressures (60,000 psi) so at the very least brass life will be short. I will also bet my skinny ass that groups will be all over the map compared to 2400-2500fps.

I don't understand what the big difference and why anyone would feel the need to push that last 100fps?
For a sanity check 250 grains at 2650fps it he 338Winchester magnum at maximum sammi pressure.... (Ya, I know selected loads will go faster).

For a guy that wants 2600fps from a 250gr I would recommend the 358Norma.

As a huge fan of Bob Hagel I can tell you one of his loads stuck my bolt shut when I blindly waded in..... and Hagel was one hell of a lot more ballisticly savvy than old Elmer.

I implied much the same in my post #4. One of the main reasons I wanted a 358 NM was initially, being a fan of Schultz & Larsen rifles, I wanted the big three items of co-operation between Schultz & Larsen and Norma. 7x61 S&H, 308 NM and the 358 NM.

Again, I agree. In many cases and in most calibers, I've found my best accuracy results have been at 100 - 150 f/sec range below the suggested maximum as/many reloading manuals.

That may well be but I think we're ill advised to blindly 'wade in' based on anyones info. Nothing shabby about Bob Hagel, or at least nothing to indicate there might be from his book Game Loads and Practical Ballistics for the American Hunter. Elmer with his broad range of experience in all firearms and aspects of hunting fit the nitch better for my interests. Working up to some of the loads he used in calibers I have I must say I've never experienced a stuck bolt or action.

 

[Demonical]

Primarily when I first got into handgun shooting, shooters and authors like Elmer Keith and Skeeter Skelton have stood at the front of the line. With their experimentation, experience and resulting developments, these people have paved the way. I've mentioned this and posted this picture previously but in the early to mid 70's, as Elmer was 'getting on' a shooting buddy and I headed to visit him in Salmon Idaho. The most memorable day in my years of shooting.

While I've done a bit of shooting over the years since, I'd be lucky if I've come even close to 'burning' 1% of the ammo he did.

Amen to that! Nobody on this forum would come close I'll bet, especially considering the vast numbers of different cartridges Elmer played with. He loaded for EVERYTHING!!

Earlier on in my experience shooting handguns, on a number of occasions a few of us had the opportunity to 'tryout' some long range shooting. With the backdrop where the impact of the shots could be easily seen, although the handgun is basically considered a close range firearm, we soon come to appreciate what is possible with some of the more substancial calibers and practice. Once we ranged in on a target and using some of Elmers long range shooting positions, seeing what shots I made, I have no doubt at all about his claims.

A buddy of mine told me a story about Elmer Keith, just the other day, when we were driving around looking for bears. There was a bunch of gun writers gathered somewhere for some kind of meeting and one of the guys had a .45ACP (pistol).
There was a gong set up at 200 yards. Elmer laid down, took aim with a 'ranging' shot, which missed. Once he knew where the gun had hit with that first shot, Elmer then emptied the clip (7 more shots) and rang the gong with every one of 'em.
Now I don't know how big this gong was, but I think anybody should understand that that's some pretty damn fine shooting ability. And I totally believe the story.

 

[SuperCub]

Used to, built on a sporterised P14. Traded it to a gent in southern BC years back for something I lusted after (which completely slips my memory at the moment. I guess old guns are like old girlfriends, you remember the good ones that got away). - dan

I always thought I wanted one of those, but in reality couldn't justify the cost and the limited time I would get to hunt with it.

An old pre64 m70 375 action would be a perfect start.

.

 

[Johnn Peterson]

Amen to that! Nobody on this forum would come close I'll bet, especially considering the vast numbers of different cartridges Elmer played with. He loaded for EVERYTHING!!

A buddy of mine told me a story about Elmer Keith, just the other day, when we were driving around looking for bears. There was a bunch of gun writers gathered somewhere for some kind of meeting and one of the guys had a .45ACP (pistol).
There was a gong set up at 200 yards. Elmer laid down, took aim with a 'ranging' shot, which missed. Once he knew where the gun had hit with that first shot, Elmer then emptied the clip (7 more shots) and rang the gong with every one of 'em.
Now I don't know how big this gong was, but I think anybody should understand that that's some pretty damn fine shooting ability. And I totally believe the story.

I'd have to go back and do a little search through Sixguns by Keith but there was a somewhat similar story concerning the 45 ACP. Also, it was a story he related to us on our visit. As I recall while doing some 'testing/shooting' during involvement with the National Guard, on the range Keith mentioned something about long range capabilities using a handgun. As I recall, apparently some 'smart ass' questioned what a 45 ACP could do at anything other than close range. Big mistake. The individual in question said something along the line that he'd be willing to stand at that range and wouldn't feel threatened by someone using a 45 ACP. Keith apparently took a range shot at a snowbank about 200 yds away, and then planted the remainder of the clip into it. Loudmouth quickly changed his offer.

 

[X-fan]

[.................
...............
...........

That may well be but I think we're ill advised to blindly 'wade in' based on anyones info. Nothing shabby about Bob Hagel, or at least nothing to indicate there might be from his book Game Loads and Practical Ballistics for the American Hunter. Elmer with his broad range of experience in all firearms and aspects of hunting fit the nitch better for my interests. Working up to some of the loads he used in calibers I have I must say I've never experienced a stuck bolt or action.

LOL!
You are right to flog me for a stupid mistake, but the blind thing was a long, long time ago (2 decades plus). What can I say, but I was young, dumb and full of errr......never mind!


Just trying to help someone else from making a similar mistake.

I'm all about setting goals then attaining them.
Same goes for velocities desired from a particular bullet...I would rather fall on the side of a slightly larger case to attain those goals.

BTW how fast does the G&H run?

 

[X-fan]

Johnn, You are one lucky SOB to have spent a day with Elmer!

I shoot more than most can fathom (no doubt others here do as well) yet I know Keith shot several times what guys such as myself do in terms of just rifles. What blows me away is that I don't really shoot much pistol and that he ALSO shot hundreds of thousands of rounds of pistol!

Elmer probably shot more .416+ than anyone. Big bore bullets are brutally expensive in this day and age so I doubt it will ever be equaled.

I bet Elmer would still consider the 270 a "pest gun".

 

[Whelen B]

...but not at standard pressures (60,000 psi) so at the very least brass life will be short. I will also bet my skinny ass that groups will be all over the map compared to 2400-2500fps.

You are guessing. Every body does it from time to time. With certain powders and rifles at 60,000psi 2600 is sometimes possible with 250s and long barrels. I've loaded and shot 35Whelens alot - and I'm guessing too - but after doing alot of case inspection, comparison and measuring. Also accuracy can sometimes be best with fastest loads - but not always.

For a guy that wants 2600fps from a 250gr I would recommend the 358Norma.

That's good advice IMO - except that when I get mine one day I'll be trying powders to safely get the last 100fps from it - expecting 250s to fly in the 2750 to 2850 range with the best combinations. I just can't help myself. I can almost hear the voices now advising me that I should have a 358STA if I want that kind of velocity.

 

[Johnn Peterson]

Johnn, You are one lucky SOB to have spent a day with Elmer!

I shoot more than most can fathom (no doubt others here do as well) yet I know Keith shot several times what guys such as myself do in terms of just rifles. What blows me away is that I don't really shoot much pistol and that he ALSO shot hundreds of thousands of rounds of pistol!

Elmer probably shot more .416+ than anyone. Big bore bullets are brutally expensive in this day and age so I doubt it will ever be equaled.

I bet Elmer would still consider the 270 a "pest gun" .

That may be so, but I think for the most part it was the result of a 'difference of opinion' between him and Jack O Connor. In a similar vane I know he was less than impressed with the 30-06 as a caliber on Deer and larger game especially Elk and he mentioned that on a number of occasions. That being said, and from my 'limited' experiences, I've shot a number of animals with the caliber and never found it lacking. I take into consideration bullet technology has changed considerably, in the last few years especially, but there were a number of accounts where he found the '06 'lacking' so far be it for me to question his findings, from that point in time.

I have a number of his books but on an even more 'interesting' side are stories/experiences he had, that to be 'politically correct' by todays standards, were never published. One involved the tale of sending a prototype of the model 29 to a buddy of his in Africa, for testing. The second was an incident that took place somewhere on the eastern seaboard at a restaurant during a lunch break at an NRA convention.

Sorry for any hijack of this thread. That wasn't the intent. Just got carried away by some fond memories..

 

[X-fan]

You are guessing. Every body does it from time to time. With certain powders and rifles at 60,000psi 2600 is sometimes possible with 250s and long barrels. I've loaded and shot 35Whelens alot - and I'm guessing too - but after doing alot of case inspection, comparison and measuring. Also accuracy can sometimes be best with fastest loads - but not always.

Yes I'm guessing, but its and educated guess.

Max pressure for accurate loads is right around 60kPSI.
At 2600fps pressure will be well above that..I'd say in the 70-75,000psi range.
At that pressure powder gets twitchy with temperature or the slightest changes and strange groups show up...One day it will shoot and the next it wont.
Not guessing about that.

RL-15 or even RL-17 might hit the 2600 mark with some semblance of accuracy.....Hard to say if there is enough room in the case for those powders? Have you tried them?
Pressure will be significantly lower with RL-17 if you can get it to lite accurately.

Good luck

 

[X-fan]

That may be so, but I think for the most part it was the result of a 'difference of opinion' between him and Jack O Connor. In a similar vane I know he was less than impressed with the 30-06 as a caliber on Deer and larger game especially Elk and he mentioned that on a number of occasions. That being said, and from my 'limited' experiences, I've shot a number of animals with the caliber and never found it lacking. I take into consideration bullet technology has changed considerably, in the last few years especially, but there were a number of accounts where he found the '06 'lacking' so far be it for me to question his findings, from that point in time.

I have a number of his books but on an even more 'interesting' side are stories/experiences he had, that to be 'politically correct' by todays standards, were never published. One involved the tale of sending a prototype of the model 29 to a buddy of his in Africa, for testing. The second was an incident that took place somewhere on the eastern seaboard at a restaurant during a lunch break at an NRA convention.

Sorry for any hijack of this thread. That wasn't the intent. Just got carried away by some fond memories..

What you love the pest gun?

I threw it out there because any Elmer fan that likes the 270 must at some point feel conflicted. Apparently you qualify for this in spades.
I must admit there is a part of my that wants to shout "pest gun" when someone touts the greatness of the 270.

Times have changed since Jack and Elmer were on the front lines of the gun mags.
With the advent of modern bullets the 270 has become the stuff of Elmer's nightmares.

 

[Johnn Peterson]

What you love the pest gun?

I threw it out there because any Elmer fan that likes the 270 must at some point feel conflicted. Apparently you qualify for this in spades.
I must admit there is a part of my that wants to shout "pest gun" when someone touts the greatness of the 270.

Times have changed since Jack and Elmer were on the front lines of the gun mags.
With the advent of modern bullets the 270 has become the stuff of Elmer's nightmares.

Not I said the little red hen!!I put that out as a possible explanation for Keith categorising the caliber as such, that being the feelings of 'fondness' he had for Jack.

The 270 is a caliber I don't have and likely never will, although I admit to having had a couple 7x57's. You're right and I agree, with some of the technological advancements in bullets there aren't too many calibers that haven't shown considerable improvement.

 

[X-fan]

Not I said the little red hen!!I put that out as a possible explanation for Keith categorising the caliber as such, that being the feelings of 'fondness' he had for Jack.

The 270 is a caliber I don't have and likely never will, although I admit to having had a couple 7x57's. You're right and I agree, with some of the technological advancements in bullets there aren't too many calibers that haven't shown considerable improvement.

Ah Yes!
A true Elmer believer!
Elmer didn't like Jack and Vice versa....Personally I think Jack was a dik.

 

[Leeper]

A recommended load for the 35 Whelen "back in the day" was 57 grains of 3031 behing a 250 grain bullet. This load might do 2600 fps but it is way too hot for use in most rifles. Hi Vel#2 was capable of achieving high velocities as well. The truth is, a 35 Whelen rifle will be a lot happier with 250's at around the 2500 fps mark than trying to push to 2600.
I shot that 57 grain load for quite a while and didn't give it much thought until I happened to fire some on a summer day. The primer was FLAT! The bolt didn't open too easily either. Any load which is not usable year around, is too hot IMO. Regards, Bill.

 

[Why not?]

There is a lot more involved in accuracy than pressure. In some of my rifles, the most accurate loads are the hottest loads.

One of them is the Husqvarna 358 Norma Magnum posted about by Johnn Peterson earlier in this thread. A max load of IMR 4895 shoots 250 Speer and Hornady spitzers into 3/4" groups all day long.

Another is an old FN Mauser 7X57. The more 4350 you put into it, the better it shoots, regardless of bullet weight being loaded.

My 223 Ackley also becomes more accurate as the load increases. In fact, one of the most accurate loads uses the 75 gr A-Max at 3000 fps. It shoots close to half-inch groups there, but only an inch or a bit less at 2800 with the same powder.

Ted

 

[Johnn Peterson]

There is a lot more involved in accuracy than pressure. In some of my rifles, the most accurate loads are the hottest loads.

One of them is the Husqvarna 358 Norma Magnum posted about by Johnn Peterson earlier in this thread. A max load of IMR 4895 shoots 250 Speer and Hornady spitzers into 3/4" groups all day long.

Another is an old FN Mauser 7X57. The more 4350 you put into it, the better it shoots, regardless of bullet weight being loaded.

My 223 Ackley also becomes more accurate as the load increases. In fact, one of the most accurate loads uses the 75 gr A-Max at 3000 fps. It shoots close to half-inch groups there, but only an inch or a bit less at 2800 with the same powder.

Ted

I haven't reloaded for it yet but IMR 4895 is on my next 'shopping' list. IMR 4350 is one of my primary 'go to' powders for cartridges of that case size but with the results you got using IMR 4895, I'm definately going to give it a good try out.

As I've mentioned previously, in most of my rifle reloads my best accuracy has been with loads usually just under suggested maximums, with one exception. And exception is the load I've been using for years in my Schultz & Larsen 308 Norma Magnum.

This load is one based on info from a previous edition of the Sierra reloading manual. As a result the 'suggested' maximum IMR 4350 charge listed in the Sierra edition V is 1.5grs less than what 'works' for me. Another major difference is my C.O.A.L. VS what is suggested. I have the room in the mag and to minimize the freebore my C.O.A.L. is 3.355" and the suggested 3.250".

 

[Whelen B]

Leeper - my experience with 3031 a few decades ago with my 35Whelen was the same as you have said. I got opening primer pockets etc at the 2500 - or even sometimes less than that - with 250s. Your comments I believe are true in regards to the classic 35Whelen powders like 3031 and 4064. However when ReL15 came along I achieved greater velocity without the other problems. Many others have too. ReL17 may be the next step up for those who care - we'll see.

RL-15 or even RL-17 ...Hard to say if there is enough room in the case for those powders? Have you tried them?

Oh yea there's room - and I've burned ReL15 by the bushel in my various 35s. If I had not I wouldn't have much to comment here on the topic of 250s at 2600MV as discussed above.
Also, as I already stated in this thread, I got slightly more than 2600 with a 22" barrel my first and only time out to the range with ReL 17 using 250s in my 35whelen/700classic. Pressures were reasonable IMO.

Regards,