Long range bullets
- Thread starter Papaclaude
- Start date
I guess it boils down to given the vast selection of top quality 165 grain .30 caliber bullets available to us today why we'd consider using a Matchking to shoot game.
If the Matchking makes the difference between a hit or a miss at 600 yards then I dont think the shooter has any business making the shot.
Just my .02 cents
^ I think the concern is the reduced impact velocity of a .308Win projectile, at 600 yards. The problem is finding a bullet with sufficient expansion + penetration at that extreme range.
I think what Boomer suggested is correct. You've got to know the impact velocity, at that type yardage and then experiment with reduced loads that meet that velocity, then fire them into media to determine how well they expand & penetrate.
BUM, I think you're giving me a bit too much credit there...
Now Rick at Alberta Tactical Rifle, he is a source I would endorse.
I think what Boomer suggested is correct. You've got to know the impact velocity, at that type yardage and then experiment with reduced loads that meet that velocity, then fire them into media to determine how well they expand & penetrate.
BigUglyMan said:
BUM, I think you're giving me a bit too much credit there...
Now Rick at Alberta Tactical Rifle, he is a source I would endorse.
Are you trying to pick a fight?
The Leica CRF ranges from 10 to 1200 yards.
My 10 year old newcon that probally cost 1/3 the money is the same quality as the leica CRF range finder... Newcon starts a 1200 yards and goes up... show me leica's range finder that can go out to 25 kilometers.
According to leica's website there top of the line goes to 1500 yards.
Are you trying to pick a fight?
The Leica CRF ranges from 10 to 1200 yards.
My 10 year old newcon that probally cost 1/3 the money is the same quality as the leica CRF range finder... Newcon starts a 1200 yards and goes up... show me leica's range finder that can go out to 25 kilometers.
According to leica's website there top of the line goes to 1500 yards.
Nope. But after I read your post, I went out on the 'web' and read some reviews on the gizmo you have. The reviews were not that favorable.
Who is shooting at 25 kms anyway? I doubt that's important...
I have never used the leica but I haven't really found one range finder thats really better then the other. The other range finder I do have is the bushnell yardage pro legend... I use it for hunting because its really small and compact you can put it in your pocket. It's good out to 1000 yards on big objects. Again I think its a good product at a good price.
Do you belive everything you read on the internet? Just joking
Like I said I have the Newcon 1200 and I have had it for a very long time its never let me down, I think I only had to replace the 9 volt battery once, there customer service is good too when I first got it I accidently dropped it on the tile floor in the house they replaced or recalibrated it at no charge.
25km is for military applications... you have to question it because don't you get to see the curve of the earth at about 18-19km in an open area... maybe if your on an elevated object like an air craft carrier or mountain ???
Do you belive everything you read on the internet? Just joking
Like I said I have the Newcon 1200 and I have had it for a very long time its never let me down, I think I only had to replace the 9 volt battery once, there customer service is good too when I first got it I accidently dropped it on the tile floor in the house they replaced or recalibrated it at no charge. 25km is for military applications... you have to question it because don't you get to see the curve of the earth at about 18-19km in an open area... maybe if your on an elevated object like an air craft carrier or mountain ???
^ FYI, I bought my Leica CRF 900 specifically for antelope hunting out on the bald-ass prairie. Then I went out after antelope and forgot the thing in my truck... Doh!! 
I shot an antelope at 40 yards and it didn't matter in the end.
Supposedly, the Leica is very good, but I find I have a hard time getting accurate readings, much past the 400-500 yard range. Not cuz it won't register at those yardages; the biggest issue is that there's got to be the right size flat object for it to measure off. There's just a helluva pile of siutations I've run into, where I've tried the thing, just out of curiosity, and I cannot get a reading. There's nothing at the range I'm trying to get a measurement that the laser can reflect back off... I think that's right...
And it's very, highly likely that I don't hold the thing steady enough. I believe a tripod would help immensely, but don't use one with mine.
The way I choose to hunt, for most stuff I have ZERO need for a rangefinder. I keep the thing around and I continue fiddling with it, to try to figure it out.
As I said, the longest I have ever ranged any object was across a small reservoir. There was a brown grassy bank on the other side, that was just the right size, for the thing to reflect off. I took multiple readings and all confirmed a 900 yd +/- 15yd measurement.
So back to topic; the guy shooting long range, like 600+ yards, which the OP said, had better be able to get an accurate yardage or he's hooped.
I'd kinda like to hear stories, experiences that regular long range shooters have, as to how reliable they can get yardages.
I shot an antelope at 40 yards and it didn't matter in the end.
Supposedly, the Leica is very good, but I find I have a hard time getting accurate readings, much past the 400-500 yard range. Not cuz it won't register at those yardages; the biggest issue is that there's got to be the right size flat object for it to measure off. There's just a helluva pile of siutations I've run into, where I've tried the thing, just out of curiosity, and I cannot get a reading. There's nothing at the range I'm trying to get a measurement that the laser can reflect back off... I think that's right...
And it's very, highly likely that I don't hold the thing steady enough. I believe a tripod would help immensely, but don't use one with mine.
The way I choose to hunt, for most stuff I have ZERO need for a rangefinder. I keep the thing around and I continue fiddling with it, to try to figure it out.
As I said, the longest I have ever ranged any object was across a small reservoir. There was a brown grassy bank on the other side, that was just the right size, for the thing to reflect off. I took multiple readings and all confirmed a 900 yd +/- 15yd measurement.
So back to topic; the guy shooting long range, like 600+ yards, which the OP said, had better be able to get an accurate yardage or he's hooped.
I'd kinda like to hear stories, experiences that regular long range shooters have, as to how reliable they can get yardages.
BigUglyMan
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- New Scotland
Demonical;4464883[B said:
How many other guys have a magic bullet testing box?
I thoroughly enjoyed this thread. Lots of good advice. Ethics are good to discuss, it shows the anti's that we really care about what we do. Probably more than most anti's will ever realise. The OP has demonstrated his ethics by asking the question.
I admire long range hunters. But me I shoot ducks on water at 10 feet with my 10 gauge if they surprise me by landing.
I admire long range hunters. But me I shoot ducks on water at 10 feet with my 10 gauge if they surprise me by landing.
I have done a lot of long range target shooting, so know how difficult it can be to get the first shot (no sighters for a hunting shot) to go where you want. That said, 600 is not "long range", and if the hunter is waiting patiently, he can keep an eye on the wind.
I have also done quite a bit of testing on ballistic gelatine. One of the anomilies with a rifle bullet is that it has quite a bit of yaw over the first 100 yards. we do our testing at 200, so the bullet is nice and stable when it hits.
You can down load the velocity, to simulate longer range, but this also reduces bullet RPM and stability in the gelatine. The bullet tends to tumble and break up more than a bullet fired at a real long range. It loses velocity, but not RPM.
A 1:10 barrel will shoot heavy VLDs in a 308. A VLD soft point hunting bullet might have the accuracy and expansion the OP is looking for. If I was gong to test expansion, I would set up those large water cooler jugs at 600 yards and see if the exit hole was pencil sized or not.
As I said earlier, i saw that a Norma 180 gr at 425 yards did not expand. (But the moose did die from two holes in his lungs.)
Those shots were from the standing position, open sights, with a Winchester 88 in 308. The guy that did it thought it was me that hit it. The recovered bullets provoed it was him. My 358 Win probably hit 100 yards short.
I have also done quite a bit of testing on ballistic gelatine. One of the anomilies with a rifle bullet is that it has quite a bit of yaw over the first 100 yards. we do our testing at 200, so the bullet is nice and stable when it hits.
You can down load the velocity, to simulate longer range, but this also reduces bullet RPM and stability in the gelatine. The bullet tends to tumble and break up more than a bullet fired at a real long range. It loses velocity, but not RPM.
A 1:10 barrel will shoot heavy VLDs in a 308. A VLD soft point hunting bullet might have the accuracy and expansion the OP is looking for. If I was gong to test expansion, I would set up those large water cooler jugs at 600 yards and see if the exit hole was pencil sized or not.
As I said earlier, i saw that a Norma 180 gr at 425 yards did not expand. (But the moose did die from two holes in his lungs.)
Those shots were from the standing position, open sights, with a Winchester 88 in 308. The guy that did it thought it was me that hit it. The recovered bullets provoed it was him. My 358 Win probably hit 100 yards short.
- Location
- Somewhere on the Hudson Bay Coast
Sorry, I've been away for a couple of days.
Drill mud is the generic term for bentonite. It is slimy miserable stuff to work with, but when mixed to the correct consistency it provides a fluid medium that bullets react in quite well, and will hold the shape of a "wound channel" to allow measurements to be taken. While there is no correlation between drill mud and living tissue, it is a medium which provides a useful way to observe and compare the terminal performance of bullets.
Actually clay is a ####ty medium for ballistic testing because it has no elasticity and it is much denser than tissue. What happens is that the bullet impact accelerates the clay laterally away from the bullet's path. The clay's mass causes it to travel in that lateral direction much further than any tissue would from the same bullet impact.
So you end up with these HUGE holes that are not even close to indicative of what a bullet would do in flesh. It all looks impressive but it isn't real.
So you end up with these HUGE holes that are not even close to indicative of what a bullet would do in flesh. It all looks impressive but it isn't real.
^ FYI, I bought my Leica CRF 900 specifically for antelope hunting out on the bald-ass prairie. Then I went out after antelope and forgot the thing in my truck... Doh!!
I shot an antelope at 40 yards and it didn't matter in the end.
Supposedly, the Leica is very good, but I find I have a hard time getting accurate readings, much past the 400-500 yard range. Not cuz it won't register at those yardages; the biggest issue is that there's got to be the right size flat object for it to measure off. There's just a helluva pile of siutations I've run into, where I've tried the thing, just out of curiosity, and I cannot get a reading. There's nothing at the range I'm trying to get a measurement that the laser can reflect back off... I think that's right...
And it's very, highly likely that I don't hold the thing steady enough. I believe a tripod would help immensely, but don't use one with mine.
The way I choose to hunt, for most stuff I have ZERO need for a rangefinder. I keep the thing around and I continue fiddling with it, to try to figure it out.
As I said, the longest I have ever ranged any object was across a small reservoir. There was a brown grassy bank on the other side, that was just the right size, for the thing to reflect off. I took multiple readings and all confirmed a 900 yd +/- 15yd measurement.
So back to topic; the guy shooting long range, like 600+ yards, which the OP said, had better be able to get an accurate yardage or he's hooped.
I'd kinda like to hear stories, experiences that regular long range shooters have, as to how reliable they can get yardages.
Shooting your rifle offhand at 600 yards isn't very effective, but neither will the laser rangefinder be able to so function correctly.
Like most things laser range finders have a learning curve....Patience Bubba!
Bright sunny conditions hugely affect the ability of the laser to read directly off of an animal, so what I do is move to trees, ground, rocks, or whatever gives me a reading near the animal....When the animal walks up to tree "x" I generally already know how far away it is.
Occasionally I have been able to walk the laser directly on to the animal (they seem to learn) at fairly extended range.
Though the Leica 1200 is better than the 900 up until this point the benchmark of LRFs has been the Swarovski....600 yards on game has not been an issue for this unit.
The Bushnell, Leupold and others are gump.
The idea of buying a LRF and running out and shooting game might work at 400 yards, but get much beyond that and there are other much more significant issues and forces at work...All to be resolved before the shot.
Long range hunting takes a lot of effort and skill ...You have touched on just one element of the LR hunters learning curve.
You have one thing right...No range = No shot
I don't think discarding your LRF is the right idea either...If you wont shoot 300-400 yards then maybe you don't need one, but I have carried a LRF for enough years to know that occasionally 400 yards looks much much closer and 300 yards looks a hell of a lot farther than 300...If you know what I mean.
Thanks to all that held off on the long range ethics dispute...Makes for better discussions.
My interest was more to test the expansion of the bullet, which clay should work for. If it doesn't expand in clay, it sure isn't gonna do it in flesh.
- Location
- Somewhere on the Hudson Bay Coast
Drill mud is very different from clay in that it is elastic, and while clay tends to act as a barrier to water keeping it out, drill mud absorbs water.
A bullet that impacts a dry medium will not exhibit the same terminal effects as the bullet which impacts a fluid bearing medium. This pic shows a bullet that was shot into a dry 16" timber.
Conversely these bullets were recovered from wet drill mud, which has a high water content, and an elastic texture. Generally bullets are designed for use on targets with high moisture content.
I think your rangefinder might be pooched....Buddy of mine bought a CRF1200 about a week before I bought one, and his wouldn't read much past 400 yards, while mine regulary reads out to 1300+ and has read on houses out to 1600+yards....(And yes, I've checked it to see how close it actually is).
Boomer. I can get all the dry product I need for my own personal use (gel,bentonite,whatever packed in 100 pound sacks) but I was curious as to how you blended and contained it for bullet testing.
It's got to be pretty messy when you go to recover the bullets?
It's got to be pretty messy when you go to recover the bullets?
