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. Given a factory rifle with a standard throat I can see many disadvantages of a short cartridge, and have experienced problems with short cartridges that can only be resolved by opting for a custom rifle. Apparently you were forced to address one of these boogy men as well by extending the length of your factory throat length.

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The standard throat 300WSM's I've loaded for seem to digest bullets up to 200 grains with no problems. There is certainly no problem with 180gr TSX bullets, and they are pretty long. If you want to use 220gr bullets they will work too. The whole "WSM"s can't take a heavy bullet" theory I think was come up by peopel who have never read a loading manual. Hodgdon lists top velocities for a 220 gr bullet in a 300WSM as 2735fps and 300WM as 2810fps. 75 fps difference isn't going to make or break anything...

Still, most guys using 300 magnums use bullets in the 165gr-200gr range and the WSM's do a great job with these. 99% of hunters using a 150gr-180gr TSX bullet will have no problem killing anything they point thier rifle at, and never have a desire for a 220gr bullet.

If you read my initial post about having the throat lengthened, you will note it was done because I was getting pressure signs before acceptable velocity, but the velocities were from a faulty chrono. It works well, but I don't know if it was necessary in the end. If I was getting another WSM built, I probably would stick with SAAMI dimensions.
 
...the rebated rim of the Ultra Mags requires that the top round in my .375 be purposely positioned as far forward in the magazine as possible or the bolt can skip over it.
...the proper placement of that top round is something I have to be aware of. I am of the opinion that designing a cartridge to optimize accuracy by following the principles or the PPC cartridges is an unacceptable tradeoff of reliability in a big game rifle. I can use all the reliability I can get, so I refuse to give up any of it in exchange for a small gain in accuracy that can't be used in the field . . . not by me anyway.

You seem to be contradicting yourself a bit here.

It is unacceptable to exchange reliability for accuracy, but you are willing to do it for velocity.
 
All this talk of WSM's having equal velocities to the regular versions aren't exactly true. The ones I have tried so far (300 and 7mm and 270) come close to the regular versions, but don't quite equal them, and with heavier bullets the regular versions gain a little more. Not a huge difference, generally less then 100 fps, which no game animal or hunter's shoulder will ever register, but it's still there. I can't comment on the accuracy, as I have seen no improvements over the regular versions I own or have access to. Doesn't mean it is or isn't true, just that a larger test removing as many variables as possible would be required to prove it one way or another. Another thing to keep in mind, is that this is a business, and coming up with new product and marketing it is a vital part of keeping that business alive, which the WSM's have certainly helped with, regardless of gun writer's opinions. FWIW - dan
 
Look I am pretty green in the land of guns, but even I know bullet designs were perfected around 50 years ago! I think the whole point of the WSM is for people to buy a new gun or to get a shorter bolt action for the mountains. Then again, if you want a mountain/bush gun you are better off getting a lever like a BLR or 336.
 
You seem to be contradicting yourself a bit here.

It is unacceptable to exchange reliability for accuracy, but you are willing to do it for velocity.

Not at all. I wanted long barrel .375 H&H velocities from a 20" barrel, and thats what I got with no reliability issues if I take care to position the top round in the magazine properly.
 
The short magnums were simply designed as a marketing strategy. Their emergence in the marketplace had little to do with real world advantages but everything to do with advertising hype to sell more products. In the short term it worked reasonably well for the manufacturers. They had new stuff to interest us and enough of us bought the concept to keep them happy – for a while. As we become more familiar with the short magnums the marketing advantage has started to fade and most of them will probably disappear over time.

It is much like the strategy used when I designed the line of Imperial Magnums, the so-called “super magnums”. These large cartridges however had three, real world, honest advantages.
- They provided the highest performance in standard magnum actions.
- The beltless design allowed more accurate head spacing than belted cases.
- The beltless case was less expensive to produce.
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Since the introduction of the Imperial Magnums in 1991 there have been approximately twenty-two beltless magnum designs enter the marketplace by Winchester, Remington, Dakota, Lazzeroni and others. Only Weatherby has introduced a new magnum case with the outdated belt. Most of these “Super Magnums” will also disappear for various reasons. Because it is so practical, the beltless design may be the only feature that endures on new “Magnum” offerings.

Holland & Holland introduced a belt on their great .300 and .375 cases only because the shallow shoulder on these cases could not control headspace correctly. They added a belt to solve the problem. The North American manufacturers followed by including a belt on their magnums and convinced their customers a belt was necessary on high performance cases when in fact they never were. The North American magnums have shoulders sharp enough to control headspace more accurately than a belt.

Are there any disadvantages with the Super Magnums? Yes, a few. There were feeding issues to deal with and the higher performance generated extra recoil. The feeding issues were easily solved with rail and magazine adjustments. The recoil was left for customers to deal with – a non-issue for some while a major issue for others.

The question often asked about the Imperial Magnums was, “do we need more performance than the 30/06 offers?” My answer was always “ I am not in the needs business – I’m in the entertainment business. I am sure we don’t need more than the 30/06 but I’m also sure there are many who want more.”

The short magnums have both minor advantages and disadvantages, neither of which is important enough to make me buy or sell one. Others will disagree and that is what makes this whole website interesting to gun cranks like us.

Regards

Aubrey
 
Wsm

Chuck,
has posted this same thread on AOL and got some feed back on just how good , why and how the WSM does work in the field..Some people can"t accept change especially if its better than what you already have .The WSM design has caught on and will carry on , get used to it . Not everyone still thinks the model 70 win with a 24 " tube and weight is the albiet..Yes the 30-06 and 308 are great but so are the new wsm's. How dare some company come out with a new design and make my ole buddie look out dated..geeze...I would bet the wsm 300 and 270 are out selling thier originals and why would that be ?? hmmmm
 
That's funny, my "outdated" belted cases seems to work just as well as the other beltless cases I use, and they've been delivering this reliability for +/- 100yrs now.


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Chuck,
has posted this same thread on AOL and got some feed back on just how good , why and how the WSM does work in the field..Some people can"t accept change especially if its better than what you already have .The WSM design has caught on and will carry on , get used to it . Not everyone still thinks the model 70 win with a 24 " tube and weight is the albiet..Yes the 30-06 and 308 are great but so are the new wsm's. How dare some company come out with a new design and make my ole buddie look out dated..geeze...I would bet the wsm 300 and 270 are out selling thier originals and why would that be ?? hmmmm

Not one person on that thread (not AOL by the way) has been able to come up with a single solitary "good" reason to use a WSM in the field over something else. Unless you consider a single stack detachable magazine in a Browning something.
 
]”

Yet his "Legend" line of rifles are all magnums?





The concept was done far before Jamison came around. He just patented it, which makes good business sense, but the patent maybe shouldnt' have even ben issued, since he certianly wasn't the first to make a "short fat magnum"








So going from 6mm to 7mm or 7.62 makes the concept invalid? Hmmm. *bullshcit* AN increase in 1mm in diameter shoudl have no affect on the concept. Wieland agrees with it for a 6BR but disagrees with it in a 7WSM or 300WSM because it is convenient for his article, and offers NO supporting information to back up his claim that it doens't translate to a larger bore size.



Put the same amount of powder in a 300WM and a 300WSM and the 300WSM will go faster, since the case is smaller and pressure will be higher. That's pretty basic stuff, and I'm surprised Terry doesn't know that.



But the 6BR is more accurate. Hmm.:p



Sure the pressure is higher. It's why the WSM brass is so damn thick. Again, pretty basic stuff. It's not so high that it's going to blow up your gun though, or we woudl be hearing about it for the last dozen years.



I've had cartridges of every description fail to feed well. Yes, the WSM's were a bit of a challenge at first, but everyone seems to have figured it out now. Every WSM or SAUM I've worked with in the last 5 or 6 years feeds fine. Ironically, one rifle that gave me feeding issues was a 375 H&H! If it wont' feed, look at what is wrong with the rifle. More basic stuff...

(My 300WSM, built by Bill Leeper feeds as smooth as any other rifle.)



I'd have no reservation taking my 300WSM on a grizzly or leopard hunt. But most of us have little knowledge of leopard hunting, so Wieland can get away with throwing that bit in there and accept it as fact.





Sorry guys....The 300 Winchester Long Magnum is out. Too short a neck...:rolleyes:



Only if we are going ot agree that ANY time a bullet is seated slightly into the case, in ANY cartridge, the pressures will increase to dangerous levels and all hell will break loose.:rolleyes:

PS Jarrets proprietary 300 Jarret has a 35 degree shoulder. Same as the WSM. And it's a "blown out" case with little taper. Same as the WSM...Why no feeding issues with the 300 Jarret?:p



Winchester should have got it right the first time before introducing the rifles and cartridges at SHOT, but it probably isn't fair to judge all short magnums by the performance of the first rifles/ammo off the production line. Through the years, PLENTY of new cartridges have ben introduced with "hot" velocities and then reworked later when pressure signs have shown up. A memorable one was the 7RM.



Yet the 300 and 270WSM are more and more popular, and many different companies chamber rifles for them. :D




Lots of great cartridges out there. Some people only like old stuff. Others like to try new stuff too. Some folks dont' like stainless or synthetic. Others don't liek wood and blue.

SOme folks use computers and email, others still hand write letters and attach sufficient postage. :p

Wieland strikes me as a double rifle/Mauser/wood-blue "traditional" rifle and cartridge type of guy. I wonder what he would say if it was mentioned that the WSM's are really .348 rimless Gradle Express cartridges with sharp instead of rounded shoulders, introduced 60 years ago, and often built on Mauser or Enfield actions?

Probably most important to use whatever works for you and makes you happy. There are millions of WSM rifles being used by happy hunters, that is probably a more important statement than a gun writer with an agenda.;)


This post is as good as the thread starting the New King of the 375's and should have killed this thread, but we are up to 7 pages.
 
Not one person on that thread (not AOL by the way) has been able to come up with a single solitary "good" reason to use a WSM in the field over something else. Unless you consider a single stack detachable magazine in a Browning something.

Its the short action! That's the whole reason. Some people will want a short action and some people won't. To some people saving a couple ounces is important. Obviously its not important to everyone. To get magnum performance in a short action is certainly a marketable idea, even if it isn't everyone's cup of tea.
 
That's funny, my "outdated" belted cases seems to work just as well as the other beltless cases I use, and they've been delivering this reliability for +/- 100yrs now.


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As you say they "seem" to work. What belts actually do very well is not significantly interfere with an otherwise perfectly designed case while serving no useful purpose.

Regards

Aubrey
 
ok

Not one person on that thread (not AOL by the way) has been able to come up with a single solitary "good" reason to use a WSM in the field over something else. Unless you consider a single stack detachable magazine in a Browning something.

maybe you should read again .Chuck I'm not saying anything more than you posting all over about disliking a wsm and i understand how you are "narrow minded" ...There are a lot more experienced (more than 32 yrs old) reviews and field testing than you ...lots of us like and will buy the wsm ..enough... but if you want me to make a point to you ..well, what vehicle and or quad do you drive ?? and I'm sure I can fault it..
 
Chuck
This thread reminds me of the one you started to make us all agree that the Echols rifles were perfect, even though the gun in the picture wasn't yours.

Who cares whether the 300 WSM is better than the 300 Win Mag?

I've owned both, they both propel my bullet of choice in .308 diameter (the 168 grTSX) over 3100 fps, both hit what I aimed at, both killed everything they were aimed at, except for a pesky Eland I hit poorly that didn't penetrate the 30 inches or so of meat I tried to shoot through by mistake. I ultimately sold the WSM and bought the Win Mag instead because I liked the Sako AV over the Browning Abolt 11 rifle better.

If we followed Weiland's and by association your advice we would all own only one gun in 30-06 and the entire firearm industry including your Idol Darcy Echols would go out of business.

Gatehouse owns this thread.
 
Its the short action! That's the whole reason. Some people will want a short action and some people won't. To some people saving a couple ounces is important. Obviously its not important to everyone. To get magnum performance in a short action is certainly a marketable idea, even if it isn't everyone's cup of tea.


No no, I said a "GOOD" reason.
 
Chuck
This thread reminds me of the one you started to make us all agree that the Echols rifles were perfect, even though the gun in the picture wasn't yours.

Who cares whether the 300 WSM is better than the 300 Win Mag?

I've owned both, they both propel my bullet of choice in .308 diameter (the 168 grTSX) over 3100 fps, both hit what I aimed at, both killed everything they were aimed at, except for a pesky Eland I hit poorly that didn't penetrate the 30 inches or so of meat I tried to shoot through by mistake. I ultimately sold the WSM and bought the Win Mag instead because I liked the Sako AV over the Browning Abolt 11 rifle better.

If we followed Weiland's and by association your advice we would all own only one gun in 30-06 and the entire firearm industry including your Idol Darcy Echols would go out of business.

Gatehouse owns this thread.

You can attack somebody personally but I can't dislike a cartridge and have an opinion on same? Classy Martin.
 
chuck

You can attack somebody personally but I can't dislike a cartridge and have an opinion on same? Classy Martin.

quit while u just alittle behind and be more positive in the future...learn a little or alot ...thats what we all here for
 
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