Lee Enfield "more accurate" at 600m - fact or fiction?

When I started target rifle shooting in the 50’s, the rifle was the #4 with a good micrometer sight (Parker Hale or A.J. Parker). Real serious shooters bought their own rifles and had them tuned up. The rest of us signed one out from the military unit we were affiliated with and it was to use for the year. An armourer would tune the bedding for us. The deal was we had to return it in original condition. The only real mod we made was to replace the rear sight, which was easy to switch back.

When the FNC1 came along, we could sign one of those out, too. As a high school student (age 15) I recall having one at home. It was brand new in the box and plastic when I got it. Around 1959, as I recall.

We did not like the FN for target shooting. I used it to shoot the service rifle matches, but for target shooting I much preferred the #4 with the excellent trigger and sights. Those who owned their rifles had the option of having the DCRA organize a conversion to 7.62.
The 7.62 was thought to be worth a point per match, due to newer and better quality ammo.

The rules relaxed and we were allowed to use other bolt action rifles in 7.62. the most common rifles were the Swedish Mauser (we called it the Carl Gustav), the P14 with a Shultz Larsen or Ferlach barrel, The Parker hale 1200 and then the Sportco, which was an Australian purpose-built target rifle. It was sort of an economy model single shot Remington, with a very heavy receiver and a 3 lug bolt. It shot the best.

But we discovered that at long range (800 to 1000) the groups were vertical and we would tend to lose a shot or two out the top and/or the bottom. Military ball has its limitations. So each of had a short range rifle (a front locker) and a #4 for long range. The #4 was required for its compensation ability. It shot much smaller groups (in the vertical) than a front locker at long range.

Think of a foot ball-shaped group. The front locker would shoot a group shaped like football standing on end. The top and bottom would poke out of the bull. A #4 group at long range looked like football on its side, with the ends still in the bull. Just about every shooter had a #4 for the longs and something else for the shorts, but the #4 evolved into something a bit different than the re-barreled army rifle. The actions were fitted with heavy target barrels (Shulz Larsen, Ferlach or Enfield) and don’t forget these barrels were always tight. Bores were in the order of .3065 to better suit the mediocre military ball ammo.
The barrels in both front and rear lockers were floated. The front lockers were not all that different than the rifle of today, except they were usually only two locking lugs. The #4 action is quite flexible. The bolt compresses on firing because he locking lugs are at the rear. When this flex is coupled with a long floating barrel, there was a lot of barrel whip. Some of us referred to our #4s as “The Twanger”.

As has been explained so well, the barrel would be in the up cycle of whip as the bullet exited. A slow bullet would exit with the bullet aimed higher, so that at long range, the slow bullet did not hit as low as would have otherwise. The group was “flatter” than it would have been otherwise.

The funny thing, is that if we happened to shoot our #4 at short range, say 300 yards, the group would be very, very tall, because the hot rounds were pushed lower and the low rounds were aimed higher. Each rifle was a bit different and would tend to shoot flattest at a certain distance, somewhere between 800 and 1200 yards. Regardless of where it was best, it was always better than a front locker (except in the rain … but that is a different story).

The Envoy was the purpose built #4 of the 70’s and 80’s. I had one but seldom used it.

Instead I used a pair of #4s that had been converted to go into a conventional Robertson fiberglass target rifle stock. My front locker (a Grunig) and my #4s used the same kind of stock, so felt more similar. A conventional #4, as you know if you every shot one, has a unique stock that does not feel quite like anything else. Here is the action, complete with a Canjar trigger.

4onepieceaction2.jpg


4onepiecerifle.jpg


The Canadian ammo of the 80s was poor (IVI). The British would use select lots of RG ammo that some years was pretty good and some years was dismal. It gradually improved and the Brits discovered that a 30” barrel on a good front locker (they used the Swing almost exclusively) would shoot long range quite well if the ammo was good. Eventually the ammo was good enough we no longer needed a #4.

When Canada switched to commercial match ammo and then handloads, the #4s were quickly relegated to wall hanger status.

Pressures of business forced me to drop out of competition in the early 80’s. When I got back into it in 1983, I upgraded my equipment and settled on a Grunig for short range (to 600 yards) and a one piece #4 for long range. Since I had a ballistics background, was a handloader and tend to be a bit skeptical about old wives tales, I had to test my #4 for “compensation”.

I loaded ammo with 150 gr Sierra match bullets and weighed powder charges. Ammo was made in 3 lots, with a 0.7gr increment. I loaded 41.3gr, 42.0 gr and 42.7 gr (IMR4895). It was not Chronyed. I started shooting with the Grunig, a solid front locking match rifle. The 42 gr load would easily hold the bull at 1000 yards. Without touching the sights, I switched to the 42.7 load, and the group formed high in the bull, with some leaking out the top. Then I tried the 41.3 load. They missed the entire target. They shot over 3 feet lower.

Then I switched to my new one piece #4. I knew the old conventional #4 would compensate. I wanted to prove to myself that the one piece would still compensate. I repeated the test. Short story. They all shot into the bull and I could not see any difference in where the 3 lots of ammo shot.

I qualified for Bisley with those rifles and in Bisley I managed to win. I set a new record score, dropping only 11 points all week. At 800, 900 and 1000 I only missed the bull twice (with issue military ball ammo).

Yes, compensation is real. The OP asked "How can a rifle shoot 2 MOA at 200m but 1.5 MOA at 600m?" It compensates for velocity differences that would otherwise open the group.

A #4 can shoot a 3 minute group at 300 yards (9 inches) and a 1.5 minute group (15 inches) at 1000 yards.
 
That was an educational read. Thank you very much.
PS: You have the craziest ass kicking looking No4 I think I've ever seen.
 
Until recently (last year) the British continued to use ammo supplied by the Ministry of Defence who either bought it from RG or once (disastrously) from FNM in Portugal. This was part of an agreement to supply range time to the Army in exchange for 'free' ammo. This arrangement has now ended (partly because the MoD has supposedly been told to distance itself from the NRA as the Home Office does not want us to be able to characterise shooting as useful to national defence) and the ammo is now being bought from RWS in Germany. Competitors who show up with L-E actions will not be allowed to shoot this stuff, during the July meeting at any rate.
 
But if your not shooting a L-E, whats the point? Hell, good shooting out of a custom gun should be the norm. Be a man! Grab some iron, wood & ye old mk1 eyeball & show them what that old "relic" will do.
 
if you make a stickey , add in , how all these factors, with a lighter action, shorter barrel with a smaller profile , cause the wandering zero effect in the jungle carbine.
 
Most of what I "know" I have observed/measured myself.

I have not seen a 'wandering zero" in my own #5s. But is have not shot them in the kind of sustained manner that a firefight might involve. As I understand the story, it is sustained fire that causes the problem.

My Rosses work perfectly, but I am prepared to believe that they can be battereed enough to cause problems.

As for the suggestion, I fail to see any link between compensation and "wandering zeros".

I was taliking to an old timer (Roy Ginn) who had been stationed in Malaya after the war. Their issue rifle was a #5 and this is what they used for target competition. He recalled that it hurt to shoot it, but did not recall a zero problem.
 
I don't know about anywhere else, but I DO know that our old Mark VII bullet (3 pieces, open base, lead core, aluminum interior balancing-piece, 174 grains) still is manufactured in India and Pakistan both.

It's not the absence of bullets that keeps the old rifles down, it's the absence of anyone willing to bring the bullets into this country at anything less than arm-and-a-leg prices.

Canadian importers, Canadian distributors, Canadian retailers tend to be sloppier and greedier than the average. For example, I just picked up the bullet-mould I ordered better than 2 years ago; it is a standard in-stock item at the manufacturer but it cost more than double the US retail price despite the very healthy factory discounts to distributors and retailers. For all too many (and definitely not for all, I must say) the philosophy seems to be, "Let 'em eat crackers.... but they'll still pay for cake!"

But if we could get some Mark VII bullets, it would do so very much for our old rifles. Until then, we are left with the Sierra Pro-Hunter 180: a good, accurate bullet (when you can find them) but not the right shape or balance. Does not one of the US manufacturers offer a Mark VII loading? Are their bullets right? Can we get a few million?

The bullet I would LIKE to see would be a Hornady 174 Spire Point; it would be sufficiently like the old Ross 'pencil' bullet to excite some very good competitions. Or what about having someone make up aluminum-tip bullets of the 'Silvertip' type? The balance should be THERE, were it done right.

Just my diseased mind running amok yet again.
 
I have a few 303 rifles that I shoot from time to time. I have loaded the 180 Spire point, the 175 Hornady Round Nose and the Sierra 174 Match.

My best shooting rifle (one of those Irish contract rifles) is the best shooting and shoots the Sierra match into a group half the size of the cheaper bullets. I was surprised that it was that much better.

So far as we can see, there is no shortage of 150 and 175-180 gr bullets available. My rifle best has a champagne taste, but some others shoot the round nose just as well as the match bullet.

As for the 3 part bullet, I think the aluminum tip was there to induce tumbling on contact - not accuracy. In my experience a 2 piece bullet is more accurate than a 3 piece, and the best is a solid base, not an exposed lead base.

As for price, I think Internet should block our access to seeing American component prices. It just causes more upset. And while we are at it, those Field and Stream magazines from the 50's and 60's with the Klein's ads in the back cover should also be banned. I don't want to see ads for $10 Lee Enfileds, $19 P14s, P17s and Mausers.
 
I would love to try some different bullet combos but do you know what epps had in stock? Nothing. Bass pro? Nada. Lebaron? Rnd nose only. The commercial bullets might do well in rifle with a tight bore but in a more "experienced" rifle nothing so far has outshot IVI from wwII. Might have something to do with that 174grn .312 bullet with the bloody long bearing surface & open base maybe? Why was the minne bullet such a hit again? I have measured open base bullets fired out of a rifle that started out >310 at the base & ended up at .312. Either way it shouldn't be such a chore to get the ammo the these damned milsurps where fed back in the day.
 
Doubt it. It is likely a non canister grade of an IMR powder. The folks who own IVI also own the powder plant.
 
I thinl IVI is owned by SNC. And I think Expro is now owned by the same outfit that has the Olin plant and sells hodgen. maybe Hodgen now owns it all?

But IVI makes ammoa ccording to the military spec. I have not been there for about 10 years, but at that time the 5.56 ammo was loaded with powder that came from France.

So far as I know, there is no connection between SNC-IVI and Expro-IMR.

But I could be out of date.
 
I would love to try some different bullet combos but do you know what epps had in stock? Nothing. Bass pro? Nada. Lebaron? Rnd nose only. The commercial bullets might do well in rifle with a tight bore but in a more "experienced" rifle nothing so far has outshot IVI from wwII. Might have something to do with that 174grn .312 bullet with the bloody long bearing surface & open base maybe? Why was the minne bullet such a hit again? I have measured open base bullets fired out of a rifle that started out >310 at the base & ended up at .312. Either way it shouldn't be such a chore to get the ammo the these damned milsurps where fed back in the day.

Depending on where you are, I believe your local wholesale sports sells 174 Gr Hornady's in .312 Flat based. I know that Henry on this board brought them in as well, but someone bought out his whole stock before I could get my mitts on them.
 
snip...
As for the 3 part bullet, I think the aluminum tip was there to induce tumbling on contact - not accuracy. In my experience a 2 piece bullet is more accurate than a 3 piece, and the best is a solid base, not an exposed lead base.

snip....

According to the books, the light filler (aluminum/compressed wood fiber) at the front was so that the MkVII bullet had the same length bearing surface as the MkVI and earlier bullets.

This was so that unlike the Germans, the British did not have to come up with a new rifling twist/bore to stabilize the lighter bullet.
 
Depending on where you are, I believe your local wholesale sports sells 174 Gr Hornady's in .312 Flat based. I know that Henry on this board brought them in as well, but someone bought out his whole stock before I could get my mitts on them.

I've thought of getting a die to reshape the nose of the Hornady RN to a Spitzer profile...
 
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