Lee Enfield "more accurate" at 600m - fact or fiction?

At the far end of the range you can clearly see the stop butt. On top of the butt you can see red numbers. At the far right, there are white targets up with black round bulls. On one of them you can see a fly. Looks like a male.

One of the next pictures in the series is a bit more clear. As for "how does one aim at a target like that?" One centers that tiny little gray dot on the front sight and squeezes very carefully. When the target goes down (meaning you hit it) you smile and start to breathe again...

The picture is of a team match, where a coach calls the wind corrections.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/762_photo/4794419645/in/set-72157624113298173/
 
Last edited:
Eyesight

A little while ago, upon reaching the mature age of 67, I made an appointment to have my eyes checked, and possibly the prescription of my glasses changed.

He asked me why I thought I might need new glasses, and I told him "The thousand yard targets are getting a bit blurry".






.
 
Last edited:
Eyesight

At the far end of the range you can clearly see the stop butt. On top of the butt you can see red numbers. At the far right, there are white targets up with black round bulls. On one of them you can see a fly. Looks like a male.



Bejazus, Bye. Your eyesight is going. IT IS A MALE. You can clearly see the antlers!:)
 
I'm constantly amazed at the amount of knowledge and experience on this forum. This thread is no exception.

I hate the design of the .303 British round (rimmed cartridge) but I respect it's power and love the Lee Enfield rifles.

I have two No.4 Mk.1*'s that I'm itching to try at longer ranges than my local gravel pits permit. I had no idea the No.1 Mk.III was more accurate at longer ranges.

I suppose now I need to start looking for a nice Aussie Enfield, eh?:rolleyes:
 
Thing to remember, MapleSugar, is that that ugly old .303 case just happens to be the OLDEST military round still in use. People praise the (even uglier) 7.62x54R for its longevity, but few realise that the .303 was adopted three years earlier.... and that the first plant to make the 7.62 was built by one of the original contractors for the .303 (Greenwood & Bately of Leeds) and then shipped to Russia.

The .303 is the last, the final link with the very beginnings of smokeless powders, the beginnings of modern warfare, the beginnings of smallbore rifles and a whole big bunch of other things. Every other rifle and cartridge from the time of its adoption has become obsolete, but the old Lee-Enfield and its .303 cartridge soldier on.

Another point is that in almost every other case, the original rifle has gone long before the ammunition. The Springfield gave way to the Garand, even though the .30-'06 came out when the .303 already was 18 years in use. That Mauser gave way to the K-43, or attempted. The Carcano gave way to the Armaguerra and only the exigencies of war kept the older rifle in use and relegated the new rifle to museum status (being that the museum was really lucky). In Russia, the Moisin-Nagant gave way to the Tokarev and, even though the cartridge still is in use, it is used only in MMGs, ALL of its rifles forgotten. But the Lee rifle and the .303 cartridge soldier on. Pretty decent for an 1879 rifle with an 1888 cartridge.

Something else not considered is the fact of that long, gentle taper. I have noticed that cartridges with a fair bit of taper and relatively-gentle shoulders seem to produce excellent ballistic performance at lower pressure levels, with a truly fine degree of accuracy and the .303 definitely fits in this pattern, as does the original 7x57, the .280 Ross and a handful of others. I have this theory that the tapered case, gentle shoulder help to funnel the gas pressure more directly and evenly to the base of the bullet. How else is it that we cannot reproduce the original performance of the .280 Ross today without going to insane pressures, nor can we reproduce the performance of the 1910 version of the .303 without very high pressures, even though we have, supposedly, made some advances in powder technology in the last 100 years? I really wish I were young enough to go back to university and study gas dynamics; I think there could be some answers there, if one were to dig deep enough.

To me, that rimmed, tapered old case is beautiful, both in proportions and performance. I rather think that, after you get a little more range time under your belt, you might think the same.
 
Last edited:
Thing to remember, MapleSugar, is that that ugly old .303 case just happens to be the OLDEST military round still in use. People praise the (even uglier) 7.62x54R for its longevity, but few realise that the .303 was adopted three years earlier.... and that the first plant to make the 7.62 was built by one of the original contractors for the .303 (Greenwood & Bately of Leeds) and then shipped to Russia.

The .303 is the last, the final link with the very beginnings of smokeless powders, the beginnings of modern warfare, the beginnings of smallbore rifles and a whole big bunch of other things. Every other rifle and cartridge from the time of its adoption has become obsolete, but the old Lee-Enfield and its .303 cartridge soldier on.

Another point is that in almost every other case, the original rifle has gone long before the ammunition. The Springfield gave way to the Garand, even though the .30-'06 came out when the .303 already was 18 years in use. That Mauser gave way to the K-43, or attempted. The Carcano gave way to the Armaguerra and only the exigencies of war kept the older rifle in use and relegated the new rifle to museum status (being that the museum was really lucky). In Russia, the Moisin-Nagant gave way to the Tokarev and, even though the cartridge still is in use, it is used only in MMGs, ALL of its rifles forgotten. But the Lee rifle and the .303 cartridge soldier on. Pretty decent for an 1879 rifle with an 1888 cartridge.

Something else not considered is the fact of that long, gentle taper. I have noticed that cartridges with a fair bit of taper and relatively-gentle shoulders seem to produce excellent ballistic performance at lower pressure levels, with a truly fine degree of accuracy and the .303 definitely fits in this pattern, as does the original 7x57, the .280 Ross and a handful of others. I have this theory that the tapered case, gentle shoulder help to funnel the gas pressure more directly and evenly to the base of the bullet. How else is it that we cannot reproduce the original performance of the .280 Ross today without going to insane pressures, nor can we reproduce the performance of the 1910 version of the .303 without very high pressures, even though we have, supposedly, made some advances in powder technology in the last 100 years? I really wish I were young enough to go back to university and study gas dynamics; I think there could be some answers there, if one were to dig deep enough.

To me, that rimmed, tapered old case is beautiful, both in proportions and performance. I rather think that, after you get a little more range time under your belt, you might think the same.

I certainly respect your considerable knowledge and experience (and appreciate your help) but I just hate rimmed rifle cartridges. I don't like how they have to be staggered in a stripper clip or magazine. I like rifles that can be loaded with stripper clips, with all the rounds feeding and stripping off smoothly.

I agree with you on the merits of tapered cases, and I'm eagerly awaiting the 1935 Brazilian Mauser in 7x57mm that I’ve just purchased. I’ve read that the long gentle taper of the .375 H&H was to facilitate easy extraction of the cartridge in the extreme heat of Africa. I don’t like how some modern cartridges are using straight walls up to the shoulder. They might get away with it in a 6mm PPC that only sees the bench, but it won’t be beneficial in high heat, or other adverse conditions. One thing I really like about the effective 7.62x39mm round is the nice taper is has.

You have to admit though, that the British realized they had been bettered by the 7x57mm in the Second Boer War, and would have likely replaced the .303 British round if the First World War had not intervened.

It is unfortunate that that marvelous rifle was not designed with a rimless cartridge. Can you imagine if both Lee Enfield rifles were chambered in 7x57mm Mauser pushing a 173 or 175 gr. Bullet? Man, would I ever love to have my Savage and Long Branch chambered in that caliber, with the sights set to match it.

Oh, yeah, and at risk of ruffling more feathers, #### on opening and forward locking lugs.:D
 
Last edited:
The only fly I can see in the ointment here is that if it had ####-on-opening and forward lugs, it would no longer be a Lee action!

You are very right that the Pattern of 1913 rifle was something else. And the ammunition for it also incorporated both the 7mm calibre AND a relatively-large amount of taper. There is an excellent book available on the Milsurps forum (free download) by Peter Labbett and Percy Reid on the design and development of the P.-'13 experimental and service ammunition. It was written before Major Labbett passed away but was never published and it is freely available now to anyone who wants a copy. It is in pdf file form and it is utterly massive when you think that it is for a very short book: just one indication on the tremendously detailed technical drawings it contains.

Again, you are very correct in that there are very few problems with the extraction of the 7.62x39, attributable to a large degree to the large amount of taper and the modest pressure levels, but the same thing also may be said of the .303. I reload my brass until it dies on me and that, of course, always occurs at the range... and I ALWAYS forget to take along one of my (several) ruptured case extractors. But no problem: just jack another round into the chamber, lodge it carefully and slap back on the bolt-handle and they both pop right out.

As to loading one's rifle, I also appreciate the speed and convenience of the charger and use them extensively. With the .303 round, all you do is polish them a little and then load them properly and use them properly and you will never get a failure-to-feed, as the Equipment Report terms it.

Further on the P.-'13, the ammunition was ALMOST rimless: a semi-rimmed cartridge with a lot of taper for easy extraction (and this one needed it) and headspacing on the case rim, which is MUCH easier to control and measure. There were nearly 2 million copies of this rifle built in .303 and they are immensely tough, superbly accurate rifles. Only the over-long bolt throw and the LENGTH of the unlocking stroke keep them from being even better. As well, they are nowhere nearly as convenient to service.

Servicing convenience is not a frill. Think of being in a shell-crater, hurt, nothing to eat for 2 days, you are soaked to the skin in mud and you are cold. You're stuck out in No Man's Land and if you stick your head up, the Maxims start hammering. And there is a problem with your rifle. You have all the tools you will ever need and they are only 3 miles away, but those 3 miles are in the wrong direction as far as you are concerned because the FIRST of those miles is under enemy fire. What do you do? THIS is where convenience of service really comes into its own. You can strip the bolt out of a Smellie and clean the mud out of it with a live round, your finger and a piece off your shirt, but can you do that with a P.-'14? How about remove a ruptured casing? Normally easy with the SMLE, harder with the (forward-locking) P.-'14 and darned near impossible (without tools) with the near-identical (rimless-ammo) M-1917. "In war, that which works best is that which is simplest," said the German General, "What I see here is not simple." He was speaking of the Schlieffen Plan, but he might as well have been speaking of the rifles as well.

After the Great War became history, Remington used up some of the remaining M-1917 parts in building the first of the rare and celebrated Model 30S rifles. A couple of years later, they modified the design slightly, making it a ####-on-opening type and terming it the Model 30 Express. I have had the rare privilege of shooting a Model 30 Express and an M-1917 modified exactly like the original Model 30S, and doing it the same day, on the same range, with nearly-identical telescopic sights. The ####-on-opening feature, I would say, slows the cycling rate of the rifle by about 20%. The longer bolt-throw of either rifle slows it down at least another 20%. This means that if an SMLE can slam out 25 rounds toward the enemy, the M-1917 MIGHT be able to put out 20 (although I am giving it the benefit of the doubt here) and I do doubt that the Model 30 Express would be able to top 15. In a life-or-death situation, a difference in attainable rate of fire such as this can make a huge difference.

As to extraction under extremely adverse conditions, the heat of the tropical countries was the REASON for all those huge old British rimmed 'elephant' cartridges in the first place. If you check the specifications carefully, you will realise that NONE of them even more than approached 40,000 psi and that by far the majority were under 35,000 pounds, PRECISELY to facilitate extraction in a situation in which you were hunting man-killing game and your ammunition had had all day to get to 130 degrees F in the chamber of your rifle. You KNEW you were going to have pressure problems and you REALLY wanted that action to extract properly! And thinking on this even further, you will appreciate the double rifle. They were not made just because those dumb Brits didn't know how to build anything else; they were made for the most dangerous duty in the world, in peacetime. Remember, when you have a failure on one side of a double rifle, you still have the other side: in effect, a whole spare rifle! And the easiest, most efficient extraction with a double rifle demands a rimmed case... so that is what they used. TRY having an ejector failure and digging a stuck rimless cartridge out of a chamber! With the rimmed cases, there should be enough space around the rim to get in a knife-blade to pry the miserable little b*st*rd out.

As to your Brazilian Mauser, friend, you are obtaining what a lot of folks would call the 'creme de la creme': a wonderful rifle, carefully made in peacetime conditions and in one of the world's truly GREAT chamberings. I have used the 1935, although I have more experience with the 1908. Both are most exceptionally accurate and they are light-recoiling and smooth as butter.

And here is something to think on (I know I am certainly thinking about it... and hoarding my nickels, too): REMINGTON turned out a SECOND Lee rifle, the Model 1899. It was chambered for several different cartridges, including the 7x57!

Enjoy your toy!

It's a keeper for sure and you will treasure it for many years to come.
 
Last edited:
Hmmmm.......

Rereading your last post, friend.

You mention the idea of a Number 4 or an SMLE in 7x57.

That's NOT a bad idea at all and, I would think, eminently attainable. It would require a magazine change and a new barrel, but that, and opening out the mag well, would be about all. Correct extractors for rimless cartridges are available for both rifles.

I REALLY wonder how one would shoot at the thousand yards.....
 
Thank you again for your insight, Smellie!:)

You make a good case for rimmed cartridges, but I still prefer rimless.....with a taper.:p

I'm going to have to read that book on the development of the P13 and it's cartridge. It sounds like mandatory reading to me. Thanks for the heads up!

As for shooting a Lee Enfield chambered in 7x57mm at 1000 yards....

....I can only hope I am able to do so one day, alongside an old pro like yourself, in order to soak up as much long -range shooting wisdom as I can.:)

Cheers!
 
This question was CONCLUDED about 75 years ago.

The PROBLEM is that we have a couple of generations of folks who will not believe anything that hasn't been written up in the American funny-papers. This is why people honestly believe that a box-stock Springfield is a better combat AND target rifle than a Lee-Enfield.... despite the fact that experience shows that this just isn't so.

That said, a long-range shoot might be a bit of fun except that you are asking for three-quarters of a minute at 1000 just to get onto the paper, and a TENTH of a minute to make a decent score. I'm not sure that EVEN a Ross could do that! Be fun at the close ranges, though.
 
This question was CONCLUDED about 75 years ago.

The PROBLEM is that we have a couple of generations of folks who will not believe anything that hasn't been written up in the American funny-papers. This is why people honestly believe that a box-stock Springfield is a better combat AND target rifle than a Lee-Enfield.... despite the fact that experience shows that this just isn't so.

That said, a long-range shoot might be a bit of fun except that you are asking for three-quarters of a minute at 1000 just to get onto the paper, and a TENTH of a minute to make a decent score. I'm not sure that EVEN a Ross could do that! Be fun at the close ranges, though.

Nope, and read the rules; single 1-for-10 paper hit at 1,000 is considered a winner. That's MOA as an average actually for 1,000, 8.5x11". 10x10" is MOA (actually, greater than in a sense being square), we can split hairs and discuss the windage only etc, but then the vertical is longer, it would get silly. :) Also stated is the target should be centered on a 4x8' backing for 500 and 1,000 yards. Will be good fun, and there's a goodly few taking up the challenge already. The 8.5x11" piece of paper represents the hit zone in combat well, I won't be at all surprised if people make 1-for-10, which is still incredible meaning one hit for a magazine of a Lee Enfield at 1,000 yards.

Hope to see you 'there' :)
 
Back
Top Bottom