Lee Enfield "more accurate" at 600m - fact or fiction?

desporterizer said:
I would love to try some different bullet combos but do you know what epps had in stock? Nothing. Bass pro? Nada. Lebaron? Rnd nose only.
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I'm in the same boat... I've been looking everywhere and no one has ANYTHING! I'd love it if someone actually made a 174gr, FMJ, .312 bullet with a flat base.

I really don't understand all of this "demand is too high" BS... you'd think most companies would want more sales, so why haven't they expanded to compensate for demand yet? Or do they hate money?
 
Ganderite said:
When I started target rifle shooting in the 50’s, the rifle was the #4 with a good micrometer sight (Parker Hale or A.J. Parker). Real serious shooters bought their own rifles and had them tuned up. The rest of us signed one out from the military unit we were affiliated with and it was to use for the year. An armourer would tune the bedding for us. The deal was we had to return it in original condition. The only real mod we made was to replace the rear sight, which was easy to switch back.

When the FNC1 came along, we could sign one of those out, too. As a high school student (age 15) I recall having one at home. It was brand new in the box and plastic when I got it. Around 1959, as I recall.
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I'm trying to wrap my head around this!
And I own an Ishapore 1A1, so its not like I never held an FAL myself.
 
There actually WAS a time when peaceful, law-abiding Canadians could own firearms, use firearms, shoot targets and nobody thought they were terrorists.

When I was in high-school, nobody thought it strange if I were to walk to the hardware store with my Number 4 slung, buy a box of Greenwood & Bately and head on off to the range. If I were to try that today, I would be in jail on at least 3 counts.... and yet STILL would actually have HURT nobody.

It took 3 hours to talk a friend out of jail a few years ago. His crime was 'walking in a menacing fashion' down the sidewalk from my house to my van. He was holding a GRAY PLASTIC reduced-size toy modelled after an M-4, complete with the price tag and the orange "LIVE-ACTION SOUND!!" stickers in place. He was reported as a 'public service' by a 'good Christian' of one of our 'pacifist' denominations which have been exempt from military service since they came here in 1876. They also spend a lot of time helping various 'Socialist' countries, but they make all their money here.

That's how much times have changed..... and I STILL haven't hurt anybody!

What we have today is a totally-anomalous situation which is clinically schizophrenic (split-off from reality). It is driven by paranoia which is whipped-up by a mass media which has been educated carefully by Left-wing professors and then turned loose to fulfill their propaganda mission.

Don't take my word for this. Read your own newspapers. Watch carefully the terminology which is used. If the police raid a gun collector, he has an 'arsenal', which word alludes specifically to WEAPONS which are kept for purposes of violence. That word would not be used if, for example, the Tamil Tigers were to be raided... simply because 'everybody knows' that they are 'freedom fighters', even though they were fighting for the 'freedom' to dominate someone else's country. The Tamils are not native to Sri Lanka, although they have been slowly invading the island for several hundred years.

This can take very odd terms. I remember watching the CBC News one night and seeing a 'documentary' on some 'freedom fighters' in Latin America who were struggling against the oppressive capitalists heroically, aided only by a few obsolete American weapons. The 'right-wing' forces (of the legal government, mind you) opposing them were armed with 'the latest equipment'. In fact, the Government forces were using American stuff from the 1950s and 1960s, hardly anything newer. As to the 'freedom fighters' in their struggle, this was the first I had ever learned that the United States of America had adopted the Stankovy Pulyemet Goryunova Modernatsiya and the Avtomat Kalashnikova as standard equipment. Oh my, the things one does miss!

Our mass media is, for the most part, completely and totally biased to the extent that they don't even realise it themselves. And they don't WANT to learn the truth for the very good reason that they get awards and they get paid (very well) for pushing lies.

I was a journalist myself for more than 25 years. There are times when I am ashamed to admit this.

If anyone asks me, I tell them that I have NO weapons. The word 'weapon' means precisely an object which is used to dominate, control, harm or defend yourself from another person or animal which has designs of the violent sort against you. I OWN NO WEAPONS. I AM A PACIFIST.

On the other hand, I do have a number of Recreational Firearms.

And a Pacifist must not be confused with a Coward. A Coward will knuckle under to anything; a Pacifist is willing to fight for his right to be left alone.

It's all in the words and how they are used.

Each one of us needs to read a really good Dictionary from time to time. There are a lot of good things in there, things which can help us if we use them properly.

Thus endeth the sermon.
 
enefgee said:
Hornady's 174 FMJ is a boat tail. - Oh you mean the interlock (just checked) I'd have thought that bullet would be common here what with moose and such, but you're right, I haven't seen any.
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On WSS website, they call it Traditional Hunting Bullet. 174Gr RN IL in .312, I believe that stands for Round Nose. Dunno what IL means.
 
smellie said:
Thus endeth the sermon.
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Very well said smellie! Off topic, but it reminds me of an old story I heard about the state of the English Language. The prof was explaining that in English, a negative is a negative and positive means positive, no compromises. To which one student at the back quipped: Yeah-yeah.

I was an advertising copywriter for over 15 years. Creative Licence was the word that was drummed into us, and yes, we drummed it into the public. Journalism was supposed to be the font of veracity. Unfortunately, these days, many journalists seem be given a "creative licence" as well. :mad:

Coming back on topic, I have to ask...how does one see a target at 600 metres, with iron sights?
 
OEM said:
:
Coming back on topic, I have to ask...how does one see a target at 600 metres, with iron sights?
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DIMENSIONS OF ICFRA TARGETS.
D1. Targets: General
D1.1. Form. All targets will consist of a circular black aiming mark centred on a white or off-white
background.
D1.2. Frame Sizes. The standard dimensions are (height x width):
300yds/m: 1.2 x 1.2 metres (4 x 4 foot)
500-700yds: 1.8 x 1.8 metres (6 x 6 foot)
Long Range: 1.8 x 2.4 metres (6 x 8 foot)
Alternatives: The 300yds/m target may also be mounted on a 1.8 x 1.8m frame, centred in a
marked 1.2 x 1.2m. square. Long Range targets may be mounted on 1.8 x 1.8m or 1.8 x
3.0m frames if domestic practice so prescribes.
 
OEM said:
Coming back on topic, I have to ask...how does one see a target at 600 metres, with iron sights?
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The bull or black part is ~2 minute of angle, IIRC.
So, at 600 yards/Metres, it is about 12" diameter.
Not very big at that distance, but enough to see.
It helps if the rear sight is a peep rather that a V type.
 
Smellie,

One example of terminology I notice is that we are refered to as Civilians, rahter than Citizens. A citizen is a stakeholder in this country, while a civilian sounds somehow less than qualified.
 
D2. ICFRA Standard Aiming Marks
D2.1. Following are the ICFRA Standard aiming marks:
D2.1.1 300yds – 560mm: 300m – 600mm
D2.1.2 500/600yds – 915mm: 500/600m & 700 yds – 1000mm
D2.1.3 700m to 1000 yds – 1120mm
Within these standard criteria National Associations may specify scoring rings according to local
criteria for domestic reasons provided always that no scoring zone is partly in the black and partly in
the white.
D2.2 The target date for adoption will be 1/1/2010. After that date, the only Imperial-equivalent
aiming mark which will remain acceptable pending reprinting is that of 559mm (22”).
D3. The ICFRA International Match Target (Short Range)
(All measurements in mm)
300 yds 500yds 600yds 300m 500m 600m
Aiming Mark 560 915 915 600 1000 1000
V-Bull 65 130 145 70 145 160
Bull 130 260 290 140 290 320
Inner 260 600 600 280 660 660
Magpie 390 915 915 420 1000 1000
Outer 560 1320 1320 600 1320 1320
Hit ROT ROT ROT ROT ROT ROT
The bull will count 5 points unless the conditions of the match specify otherwise. The other rings score
successively one point less.
D3.1. The target for 700 yds will be that for 600 m. If a 400yds or 400m target is required, the
300yds or 300m target (as appropriate) may be used, with aiming mark and rings increased
proportionately - i.e. x4/3 in diameter.
 
seeing targets

OEM said:
Very well said smellie!

Coming back on topic, I have to ask...how does one see a target at 600 metres, with iron sights?
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By using one's eyes, one looks through the rear mounted peep sight, tries to bring the foresight into a modicum of focus, and aligns the top of the foresight with the bottom of the black bulls eye on the target. Of course, one has to set the proper sighting arrangement for elevation and windage, taking into account the quirks of nature, such as wind speed, direction, elevation of the shooter, elevation of the target, time of day and light conditions, angle of the sun, and it's direction on the target, humidity, the characteristics of the particular lot of ammunition used, ( and possibly the rotation of the earth.:) .)

Assuming one has a stable firing position, and is capable of holding the rifle so that the foresight is on the target MOST of the time, then the proper application of pressure to the trigger has a high percentage factor in achieveing a hit on the target.

At 1000 or 1200 yards, it is even more interesting.

Also, the targets are bigger at longer ranges. One of the things with shooters now is the inability to fathom just what we regularly used to do with equipment like the Lee Enfield, Ross, and P-14 on a military range. What we are talking about here is SERVICE RIFLE competition, and it was a test of what that rifle and ammunition would do in the hands of a skilled rifleman.

A case in point is the almost total lack of open sights on available hunting rifles today. If your scope fouls up, your hunting is over until you either repair it or get a new scope mounted on the rifle. With a set of open sights, you have a back up option for out to an easy 200 yards on a game animal.

I had to laugh at one of our Canadian Hunting TV Shows where the host came to Manitoba, and when he got to camp, found up his scope had been dropped. And no spare back-up scope in his luggage. He then had to use a bow and arrow, and a large Moose walked by him at about 80 yards, well within open sight range, but well out of arrow range. He was using a modern, magnum rifle, and it had no open sights on it, and it was sitting useless in camp, because of no alternate sights or at least a spare rifle scope. Imagine the average hunter going thousands of miles, spending thousands of dollars, and failing to take the simplest of precautions. I would not be surprised if he had shipped ALL his ammunition in one case, instead of distributing it over two or three cases in case of a missing piece of baggage.....gone with all your ammo. Oh, well, you could always make a spear!

No, we saw the targets, and we shot at them. We were limited by our equipment, compared to today's shooter. But, you also have to remember that we old farts developed the sport, and you younger guys are benefitting from our knowledge, experience, tests, and experiments.

What is going to happen 40 years from now, when TODAY will be the GOOD OLD DAYS to the present generation?
.
 
tootall said:
The bull or black part is ~2 minute of angle, IIRC.
So, at 600 yards/Metres, it is about 12" diameter.
Not very big at that distance, but enough to see.
It helps if the rear sight is a peep rather that a V type.
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Aha! Therein lies the problem! My SMLE has a v-type notch. I'm in the process of getting a cheap pair of clip on sunglasses and drilling the little hole thingy. Hopefully that will make my notch clearer. :D

Buffdog, thanks for your informative treatise. I will keep it in mind when going hunting. Need to practice at 200 M with open sights....;)
 
#4 Enfield

I too started off with a No.4 with a front blade sight and a parker hale 5C rear sight, at Blair range in North Vancouver, using DAQ 1950 ammunition. We were shooting at 900 yds and an older shooter pulled out a round of WWI vintage ammo (Mk VI, I think) and the discussion started regarding whether or not it would still be usable. My coach had just finished firing, took it, laid down, and fired. Much to our surprise, the target went down and came up with an inner 4, just below the bull. My favourite IVI ammo story was one from Ottawa where a visiting American shooting was struggling with his group. He allegedly took an IVI 7.62 round, pulled the bullet out with his hand, poured the powder on the ground and commented "This #$%^&* ammo must have been made by pacifists." :)
 
You guys are getting me to think about things that I have long forgotten about. Like IVI ammo. i would rather forget that. Like how did we aim?

The short range targets (200 to 600 yards) were only half a black aiming mark - the top half. Often called the "tin hat" target, because the aiming mark looked much like the Tommy helmet. The sight picture was the post front sight just below the flat black bottom of the aiming mark, with a band of white showing. It was an easy target to aim at. Sometime around 1965 we stopped shooting at 200. The rifles and ammo were so good we blew the centre out of the target,

The band of white was somewhat subjective. On an overcast day, the contrast between the black aiming mark, white paper and black front sight was sharp. On a sunny day, the glare made the contrast less sharp. As a result, in order to leave the “same” band of white, one had to aim a bit lower. Of course the shooter would not know he was aiming lower - he would only know that his elevation that day was a bit higher than on another day. You may have heard the phrase “Light up –Sights Up”. If the sky was clear with a few big clouds that sometimes passed in front of the sun during a match, the wise shooter would notice the light change and then change his sights. About a minute shift.

At long range (800 to 1200 yards) the aiming mark was round and black. We used the same target at all distances, so 800 was a gimee, and 1200 very difficult. Aiming at the round aiming mark and leaving a little band of white at long range was more difficult. The bull looked kinda small. The black ball sitting on top of the post was called a “lolly pop” sight picture. Light changes would cause greater shifts in elevation. There was another way to aim, called “framing”. The post would be placed over the bull, so it could not be seen. The shooter would aim at the white target frame, leaving a band of white across the top and even bands of white down each side of the post.

When we changed over to match rifle from #4, we adopted aperture front sights (ring sights) and black round aiming marks. This made life a lot easier. We used a different size ring for each distance and adjusted up or down a bit, depending on light.

On occasion I have test ammo with both a scoped rifle and with aperture sights. There was not much difference in group size. The big advantage of the irons sights was the vernier. You could look at your sights and see exactly how much wind and elevation was on the sight. Our long range rifle often had quarter minus for elevation and half minutes for wind. Quarter minutes of elevation were handy for fine-tuning the elevation, but at long range, handfuls of wind were needed. The rule of thumb was that if you could see a wind change at 1000 yards, it was at least 2 minutes.

Younger eyes were better at keeping the front sight in focus. To help, many of us used shooting glasses. When aiming, with our head snugged up on the rifle, we tend to see the sights through the top inside part of our glasses lens. So the shooting glasses features a right lens that was displaced up and to the left, and tilted a bit so as to be perpendicular to the sights. A filter or polarized lens was common, to aid focus.
 
Barrel gets too hot after a few rounds and presses against wood, losing proper bedding. Let her cool down and you can get a few more accurate shots in. ;)

2005%2008%2005%20034%20_Medium_.jpg


Knocking down 12" steel plates at 600 meters with a 1945 Enfield No.4 Mk1(T)​

Regards,
Badger
 
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