Fake or Fact - My Nazi Marked Mosin M44
- Thread starter skirsons
- Start date
And to me that screams forgery. I don't know how often the Germans stamped the capture designation on the firearm.
It almost looks like the forger had too much information and applied an excessive amount of markings.
When I was younger and used to build models, I'd stick all of the decals on. Then as I researched, a late war tiger or panther would have very few if any markings.
The 457r, the 3 firing proofs, the marked bayonet, the 2 stock marks, the two receiver marks, all point to a person with a picture or two of German markings, but not enough knowledge to do an accurate forgery.
Damn well put. One badass rifle man.Unique piece of history nonetheless.
I think the jury is out on this one.
If it is what it looks like. Sweet.
If not... Sweet!
There was a whole batch of firearms out of Yugoslavia which had German marks applied. Not just rifles. Some of the arms could not possibly have been captured by the Germans, like the '46 dated rifle mentionned.
The question is when the marks were applied, and by whom. I would view the rifle as a novelty, and would not put too much faith in the authenticity of the markings.
The question is when the marks were applied, and by whom. I would view the rifle as a novelty, and would not put too much faith in the authenticity of the markings.
I don't want to get drawn into any criticism of John, and to be fair, he has not spoken here.
That said, anything you might say on the subject, unless it is backed up by legitimate factory and/or historical records, is simply hearsay (something you heard that you are passing along) and speculation.
Coyote Ugly
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
Those would be chrome plated and SS Marked in 78 places!
If you look carefully, the pic of the bolt has (IMHO fake) SS Waffenampts on it. FWIW, I don't believe SS Waffenampts ever existed. Known SS markings are single-rune "s", "SSAZ" (if memory serves), the death's head, and themes/combinations of these. I've never heard of SS under a heereswaffenampt before this thread and I seriously doubt they exits for two reasons:
1) I've never seen one before except on known fakes
2) The SS was not part of the Heer (Official German Army) and did not utilize the Heereswaffenampt for inspecting their rifles.
Some background: The rifles destined to the airforce were not Heereswaffenampt inspected or waffenampt stamped - they carried luftampts which are similar to swastika-type WaA markings except the eagle is clutching a stylized "LA" instead of a swastika. Same with the SS, they had their own unique inspection marks that look nothing like the ones on the depicted bolt.
Of course, this could just be the first one collectors have ever encountered........
1) I've never seen one before except on known fakes
2) The SS was not part of the Heer (Official German Army) and did not utilize the Heereswaffenampt for inspecting their rifles.
Some background: The rifles destined to the airforce were not Heereswaffenampt inspected or waffenampt stamped - they carried luftampts which are similar to swastika-type WaA markings except the eagle is clutching a stylized "LA" instead of a swastika. Same with the SS, they had their own unique inspection marks that look nothing like the ones on the depicted bolt.
Of course, this could just be the first one collectors have ever encountered........
ok, without commenting on the rifle being discussed, here is a picture of a verified capture that also has SA marks. In other words, this one would have been captured by the Finns in the winter war and then captured from the finns by the Germans in the Lapland war between September 1944 and April 1945.
This is what a late war capture should look like, IF it got marked - most did not. It's a single Proof on the receiver or stock, depending on the rifle. this is NOT a Waffenampt, which is a factory inspection stamp. This is a Heer proof mark meaning it was safe for service with issue ammunition. The vast majority of authentic captures are so marked, if they got marked at all.
This is what a late war capture should look like, IF it got marked - most did not. It's a single Proof on the receiver or stock, depending on the rifle. this is NOT a Waffenampt, which is a factory inspection stamp. This is a Heer proof mark meaning it was safe for service with issue ammunition. The vast majority of authentic captures are so marked, if they got marked at all.
Waffenamt teams could be asked to inspect virtually anything before delivery to the army. It's not necessarily a factory process but was used largely in a factory setting. Waffenamt teams were sometimes asked to inspect cheese. Since a Waffenamt team could work geographically anywhere and the officer took his dies with him it is hard to track exactly where something was inspected.
Interesting pic and story. There's a lot of SA stamp fakes out there too, so you have to be weary of them even.
LOL - the above example belongs to Vic thomas. It's not a fake. And waffenampt inspectors and their exact locations for any given date are known. Read backbone of the whermacht for starters - gives most of the locations and dates in a nice little table.
The Heereswaffenamt added WaA marks to components once they gauged properly on firearms. The complete firearm received a firing proof like the one depicted. Since the Reich didn't manufacture captures, TYPICALLY they only receive firing proofs and not manufacture inspection stamps.
Which is why there is absolutly no reason for there to be a WaA stamp on the bayonet lug of the m44.
Then you need to ask just where the inspector got the correct gauges to inspect the m44 in the first place. With no manufacturing facilities for Russian arms just how would a German inspector know if the component was in or out of specification?
Also does anyone have a authentic example of a captured (not manufactured under occupation) rifle with the German designation i.e. 457(r)?
With a couple cartridges, a set of calipers, some lead and an eyeball a smart man could design inspection procedures for anything you could carry, wheel or hoist through the door. safe to fire with issue ammo is not a tough one.
Hence the reason captured rifles have a firing proof and little to nothing else.
I agree that given time and resources a full set of specifications could be derived at. But if they did this where are the documents that would have been distributed to the inspectors? Also take a moment to think about the sheer number of captured equipment the Germans re-issued? Did they issue a full set of specifications for each and everyone? Where are they if they did (they did distribute manuals on the use of captured equipment)?
Now think about the time needed to develop such a document, the number of captured rifles needed to get a good sample and the date this particular model of rifle went into service...
There are too many cons to this rifle and not enough pros (are there any?)
You must be talking about a different Santa Claus as yours seems to be have a different spelling than the REAL Santa Claus.
- Location
- West coast of Vancouver Island
I wonder if he meant sanity clause?
Nope just pretty good at spelling and seeing at my old age of 65 and still believe in Santa am always very cautious on how I spell his name as I don't want him to forget me on the 25th.
