Self Defense Pump
- Thread starter JohnRigby
- Start date
That certainly is a very good deal on a quality pump. While that lasts I can not see anyone buying express or those other knock offs.
+1
Trying to justify needing one at that price! I love the BPS, no pump gun has as 'solis' feel in my opinion. Should make a great camp defender.
cumminsdsl
Member
- Location
- Ottawa Valley
why dont you get yourself a nice marlin 35, 444, 450, or 45-70, with a short barreled shotgun your going to have to be pretty close to that bear to be effective.IMO
Brutus
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
I some wilderness places if you carry a shotgun for wilderness protection and are stopped by a CO, it is less apt to raise suspision that you are poaching.
You will have to be pretty close to that bear to be clearly defense and not bear hunting. If it gets that close my vote would be an oz. of lead. Now if it gets to the other kind of defense, the pump 12 gauge is more versatile with more options.
- Location
- Somewhere on the Hudson Bay Coast
First off, defensive guns must be 100% reliable, nothing short of this is acceptable. If you have a hiccup with your gun determine first if it was human error, an ammo problem, or a gun problem. If it was human error, run some drills to correct the situation so it never comes up again. If you have determined that you have an ammo problem, switch brands or loads. If there is a mechanical problem with the gun, get it fixed, immediately. Don't wait till next week, or payday, get it fixed as soon as the gunsmith can get to it.
I'm pleased to see you have a realistic budget for your defense gun. Too many folks on here will go out and purchase the cheapest gun on the market to defend their most valuable asset, their lives.
Don't be mesmerized by long magazine tubes. It is more important to know how to run a regular 5 shot magazine fed shotgun than it is to have 8 rounds in the magazine, where the additional length and weight could make it impossible to bring the piece to bear in an emergency. Keep the gun short; a 14" barrel makes for a trim fighting gun, and it keeps the balance of the gun where it should be, between your hands.
These days there are truckloads of gimmicks you can hang on a shotgun. I recommend 3. First is a Sidesaddle. The sidesaddle ensures there is always ammo with the gun. Second is a set of rifle sights, preferably a ghost-ring and post arrangement, the post provides a better index of elevation than any other metallic sighting system and the ghost ring is faster than any open sight or even a bead. Thirdly I recommend a sling and swivels. Particularly in the home defense scenario, you don't want to have to put your gun down for some reason and loose it in the dark or have it recovered by the bad guy. A short light shotgun can simply be slung when you need to attend to other things.
The dimensions that matter in your shotgun are the length of pull, the barrel length, the magazine length, and the overall length. The length of pull is important because too long a stock makes mounting the gun slower, less natural, and increases the sensation of felt recoil. The barrel length should be kept short to facilitate use in confined spaces. However, once you go to a barrel that is shorter than 14", the shorter barrel length will have a limiting factor on your magazine capacity. I think you should choose a gun with a 5 shot magazine, this might require a magazine extension in some cases. A longer magazine makes the gun unnecessarily heavy and unbalanced and requires the barrel to be longer. A shorter magazine with a capacity of fewer than 5 rounds could compromise your safety. The overall length is an important legal requirement. You don't want to be in noncompliance in scenario that will involve the police, lawyers and courts, but otherwise keep the OAL as short as is legally possible.
Both Mossberg and Remington produce quality products that require little additional tweaking to make right as defensive firearms. I prefer Mossberg’s 590s to the 500s due to the system Mossberg used to connect the barrel to the magazine of the 500. I prefer the 870 Wingmaster or Marine magnum to Remington’s 870 Express. Choose the gun that catches your imagination, make it right for you, and shoot it enough that you are competent to protect yourself and your family with it.
Brutus
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
Here is an example of the uncomfortable legal position a wilderness wanderer in Alaska might find oneself in:
Say you are salmon fishing on a remote stream in southern shorelines near Juneau. You are attacked by a coastal grizzly along the streambank and you have no option but to shoot it as it charges you at nearly spitting distance.
You are shaken but alive thanks to your competence with your defensive firearm. A conservation officer shows up and must carry out an investigation into this shooting as he must discern if this is a bona fide DLP (defence of life and property) shooting with the nod from the wildlife department.
One of the most redeeming or damning factors will be the proximity of yourself and the bear at the first bang.
The closer the distance, the "better" it looks for you, IF you survive and stop/kill the bear.
At these distances, a slug fed repeating shotgun, is a better choice than most rifles.
- Location
- Somewhere on the Hudson Bay Coast
In the wildlife defense scenario, either a powerful rifle or a shotgun is a viable solution. The advantage the rifle has over the shotgun is if your kid ends up with a bear problem when he's fishing along the river bank 200 yards away, you can influence the situation. Armed with a shotgun, you are an observer.
If you add to the basic senerio too much you may need a scoped long range rifle.
If you're in bear country you should not allow your kid to wander far from dad and his gun. If your kid is old enough to wander, he should have his own bear defense and be taught how to use it.
- Location
- Somewhere on the Hudson Bay Coast
If you add to the basic senerio too much you may need a scoped long range rifle.
All I'm saying is that bear defense is not always a short range gig, carry what you like, the scenario I described is not that uncommon. Kids need the freedom to wander and explore wild country alone. When I was a youngster I enjoyed that freedom which taught me a life long appreciation for wild places and for the critters that live there.
This raises an interesting question though. If you want your youngster to carry a firearm suitable for bear defense, what should it be, and what will be your measure to determine his competence with it? In black bear country a .30/30 is a suitable choice. In polar bear or grizzly country the .30/30 might be a bit of an under achiever, but lets use it as our basis of comparison as the majority of centerfire rifle cartridges both larger and smaller that are suitable for bear defense, as opposed to bear hunting, must be downloaded to approximately that level of performance so that younger shooters can manage them in a suitably downsized light rifle. The ubiquitous 12 ga pump loaded with slugs is clearly too much for the majority of preadolescents, so that old standby must be put aside till he's older.
The youngster must be taught that simply filling his sights with bear and pulling the trigger is the wrong way to go about things and that procedure could result in a dangerous situation getting worse. He must be taught the target indexes on a bear from different angles. While the initial shot might be head on, it will not necessarily be so. The shot might have to be made while looking up at the bear, looking down on it, or on the same plane. A subsequent shot might be quartering away, quartering towards, broadside, straightaway, or head on. The target will always be in motion. He should be taught to cycle his action without removing the butt from his shoulder and shoot from off hand, kneeling, or reclined positions from 90 to 180 degrees to his front. The drills should be fired at ranges out to 50 yards but concentrating on gun handling and shooting at very close ranges from muzzle close to 30'. All firing should be done in pairs. From a ready position with the rifle held in both hands, two shots should be fired within 2 seconds from the signal and the shots should strike the target within 2" of either side of center, elevation is less important. Gaining consistency is the key. Finally once he has proven himself on the range, he should probably participate on a big game hunt so that he comes to fully understand the ramifications of pressing that trigger. This is not something that will be learned over a weekend, or perhaps even over a number of months. But simply giving a kid a rifle and telling him he only need shoot to solve his problem is to give him a false sense of security.
cumminsdsl
Member
- Location
- Ottawa Valley
I'll take my chances, there is a better chance I will be alive or not mauled to explain myself if I drop a charging grizzly at 75 yards, rather than waiting till he closes into 20 or so before my weapon becomes effective.IMO
- Location
- Somewhere on the Hudson Bay Coast
At 75 yards the bear doesn't pose a danger to you and shooting him at that distance doesn't give him much of a chance. A bear has to touch you before he can hurt you, but in the end you must react if you believe you are at risk. I think you would be charged if you dumped the bear at 75 feet, never mind 75 yards, but that depends of the specific circumstances.
If the preadolescent is not able to handle a bear gun, then he must stay in range of dad when in bear country. He should not count on dad to pull off that 200 yard shot to save his butt.
Cmon, Boomer, we're talking bear defense guns! Sure rifles are better than slugs at range! Next thing you know some one will be pointing out that ultra mags are better when the kid is 400 yards away. As far as your how to shoot bears instruction goes, it's good, but many who buy bear derfense guns don't know how to shoot tin cans let alone bears. I think that a handy 12 gauge pump loaded with 1 ouncers would be nice to have if confronted with a bear. No guarantee that one will not get eaten, but it will only provide a bit of confidence. That's all! "If you go out in the woods today you better not go alone....(to music) because this is the day the teddy bears have their picnic"PS: I neglected to mention the obvious. If your kid is not legal gun age, he/she should not be in possession of a firearm of any kind, bears or no bears.
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Brutus
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
Sure! Whatever floats your boat friend.........
At 75 yards a large rifle may be a better choice. You had better have a grizz licence or be prepaired to shoot, shovel and shut up. Better still if a bear at 75 yards causes you to shoot maybe you should limit your fishing to stocked ponds in some safer place.
I'm curious, how would a wildlife officer be able to tell how far away the bear was, when you shot it? If I shoot a bear at 75 yards, I'll tell him it was 10 yards away. What's he going to do, bring in CSI? You'd have to be less than 10 feet away to leave powder burns. I suppose he could look at the shot pattern, if you used buckshot, but how likely is it that you'd be taken to court?
I like the Mossberg 590A1, six shot model. The compact size, and pointing characteristics make up for the lesser magazine capacity. Mine has 3 dot rifle sights, which I prefer over ghost ring. The safety is more functional than any of the other brands. I carried a cut down wingmaster for years, and they're great guns, except for the safety. I prefer 000 buckshot over slugs, though many people disagree.
I like the Mossberg 590A1, six shot model. The compact size, and pointing characteristics make up for the lesser magazine capacity. Mine has 3 dot rifle sights, which I prefer over ghost ring. The safety is more functional than any of the other brands. I carried a cut down wingmaster for years, and they're great guns, except for the safety. I prefer 000 buckshot over slugs, though many people disagree.
- Location
- Somewhere on the Hudson Bay Coast
If you shoot your bear with 000 pellets at 75 yards, you could well find yourself in an up close life and death confrontation with a wounded bear, particularly if you think, "Well he's gone, we won't see him again."
If there are serious and significant contradictions between your story and the physical evidence, I would think you could be charged. If you can't anticipate those questions, you should probably not involve yourself in an unnecessary shooting.
I agree with your choice of a shotgun, I think its a top choice. The choice of sights is a personal matter, so if you find a bead is faster than a ghost ring and post, for you that is the correct answer. But buckshot has a very specific usefulness in the bear defense scenario, and under most circumstances it stacks up poorly against slugs, particularly when compared to those of the Brenneke or Challenger profile. Due to the small pattern diameter, at very close range you must shoot a charge of buckshot as precisely as you would a slug or a rifle bullet. The point of shooting is to stop the bear's forward progression to prevent it from touching you, and buckshot is not a reliable bone breaker. Where it does shine is in towns or crowded campgrounds where the over-penetration of a slug could endanger other people, so a couple of rounds of buckshot in a sidesaddle can be a good thing.
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I not sure it would be better off in the tacticool forum. In that forum the OP would receive advice on how he must have a Knox or a PGO stock, a bayonet, a tri-rail forend, single point sling, side-saddle, butt cuff, jumbo safety, laser sights, heat shield and a breaching tool, never forget the breaching tool.
On this thread once you get through the silly posts about rock salt and jalapeno peppers you will find solid practical information from people with experience in real life situations who don't depend on fantasy range adventures for their opinions.
The OP is new and probably wasn't aware of the two forums. But he is fortunate to have posted here where he can find practical information he can use.
May The Fudd be with you.
