French Gras Rifle experience - updated with pix (56K warning)

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Since i have outstanding space in my cabinet I'm wondering about purchase of
one of P&S Militaria Grass rifles in 8x50R Lebel.

Since this will be relatively large expense for me I'd like to ask if anyone had/have any experience with those rifles (not necessarily from this seller).

I'm talking about things like fit/finish,state of preservation,accuracy with cast boolits etc...

KP
 
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lol, there's only one 's'. And it's silent, so it's pronounced 'grah'. If you're dedicated enough to buy it, might as well pronounce its name correctly. You wouldn't want to mispronounce the lady's name, would you!:p
 
I thought it was spelled with an "E" as in "Grasse", the town in France where one of our famed politicians was supposed to have learned to speak French. Speak French he does, but with a Montreal accent. Wonder if that had anything to do with a schooner-load of Mary Jane that was intercepted accidentally at Tors Cove......

As to Gras the rifle, I would really prefer one in the original .43 calibre. The 8x51R Lebel cartridge strains this old action pretty much to its limits. Think of firing a .303 out of a Snider. I would really take friend Claven-2's recommendation to heart; he is doing you a favour with this advice.

The actual action of the rifle began as the Chassepot Mle. 1866, a needle-gun. Gras came up with a way to save money by converting the needle-guns to take metallic cartridges after France had lost the Franco-Prussian War. For this patriotic duty, they blamed the rifle on him. Nicest thing you can say about them is that they are a primitive bolt-action with the accent on the word "primitive". No safety of any sort. Sort of neat, though. Like most French equipment, a rotten design made into a piece of art with top-grade materials and exemplary workmanship. A lot of them were converted into bargain-basement shotguns beginning in the Pre-WW1 era. Nearly all of these have chambers MUCH too short for modern shells.

Ah have no idea where one maht fand BOOLITS fer setch a hanimule but if yall wanna trah cast BULLETS you will find that Lee Precision makes a pretty nice .323 mould, single cavity, in the $25 range. Cast up a pile of these and power them with 13 grains of Red Dot and you have an 1800 ft/sec load with very little pressure, quite accurate and still enough power to wallop a Bambi if you get hungry.

Dies are available from several manufacturers, including Lee Precision. Trade-Ex has the brass in stock right now. I just got 50 rounds from them and it was $35 well spent: Prvi Partizan, Boxer-primed, too.

Most important point of all: have fun!
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FWIW, It's really easy to make 8mm Lebel brass.

You just run .348 Winchester through a 8mm lebel sizer die with the decapping rod removed. You then trim to length and anneal the necks to the shoulder.

Finally, you need to fire-form them with cream of wheat over a mild charge, re-size again, check length and trim if required and you're good to go.

I've made MANY MANY Lebel cases this way in the past - never an issue. Re-anneal every 2 or 3 loadings and with mild loads they last forever.

In a Gras though, emphasis on the mild.

Neat rifles though!
 
All rifles i feed with casts are loaded with Red Dot of Trail boss.I'm no attempting to break any records with them-their age took that ability away from them long time ago.
I don't think Gras will get any different treatment.
 
Nice to know. Do it right and the old girl will still be on the range for her THIRD change of century!

When you get her, let's see some pics.... and a firing eport would be just SUPER.

Are there any around in the original .43? I'd ike to save up for one, if it can be found: something to give my Mouser some competition!
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Claven, I tried making Lebel brass from .348 and the base wouldn't go into the sizing die. I ended up buying a lathe so I could trim a .003" cut all around the base. That cured the problem, but then Trade-Ex came up with The Right Stuff and then my brother discovered that I had some .348 that had not yet been made into 12.17x44R for HIS Remington, so that's a dead issue now, too. Gotta lay in some more 348 while it's still being made; it is useful for SO MANY oldtime cartridges.

LOL!
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Yes, .348 is very handy base round.

If I recall, on some of the Berthiers, I needed to lathe a few thou off the web area just above the rim, while in other rifles it wasn't a problem.

A word of cuation though, if you use these in a 1886 Lebel with spire points, you need to single-load as these cases won't have the safety groove on the base to prevent the spire from igniting the primer ahead of it.
 
I only have the Berthiers; can't afford a Lebel, although I do have the Kropatschek (Portuguese, in my case) that it was 'developed' from.

I like the Krop, just wish ammo was a bit more common. International was forced to scrap several hundred thousand rounds because it wasn't 100% sure-fire. Not even allowed to sell it for components. Good thing Our Beluvvid Gummint is protecting us from this ammo that doesn't work! Somebody might get not-hurt and THAT would be terrible propaganda against the Gummint-supported antis.

I just wonder why Wendy gets to operate off a massive Gummint subsidy while that SAME Gummint is trying to get rid of HER pet registry. Nothing makes sense.
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I have one in 11mm. Fun to shoot even if you need a hammer to move the trigger.
I suppose that's why the French never put a safety on it. No bloody way you could make it go off accidently!
 
Nice to know. Do it right and the old girl will still be on the range for her THIRD change of century!

When you get her, let's see some pics.... and a firing eport would be just SUPER.

Are there any around in the original .43? I'd ike to save up for one, if it can be found: something to give my Mouser some competition!
.

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IF i get one you can be sure ill post range report asap.

From what o found with google ,both English and French searches show surprisingly many hits,pictures and general info on Gras rifles .All of those i found are in their original calibers i have yet to see any detailed info on 8mm conversion.For all interested google "fusil Gras" and use a translator.

http://jp.sedent.free.fr/

http://armesfrancaises.free.fr/les%20armes.html

Above sites are the best from what i have found,to read Eng.stick address in google and use translator.

btw-Anyone knows what is a rate of twist on Lebels and Bertiers? 1:10?
 
Rifling twists: here we go!

Chassepot 1866: 1 turn in 21.2 inches.

Gras 1874: 1 turn in 21.65 inches.

Kropatschek, French Marines: 1 turn in 21.65 inches.

Lebel 1886: 1 turn in 9.45 inches, left-hand.

All figures from the TEXT BOOK OF SMALL ARMS - 1909 (His Majesty's Stationery Office, London, 1909, Crown copyright).

I would imagine the Berthier would be the same as the Lebel, but I am always ready to be surprised.

Hope this helps.
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Rifling twists: here we go!

Chassepot 1866: 1 turn in 21.2 inches.

Gras 1874: 1 turn in 21.65 inches.

Kropatschek, French Marines: 1 turn in 21.65 inches.

Lebel 1886: 1 turn in 9.45 inches, left-hand.

All figures from the TEXT BOOK OF SMALL ARMS - 1909 (His Majesty's Stationery Office, London, 1909, Crown copyright).

I would imagine the Berthier would be the same as the Lebel, but I am always ready to be surprised.

Hope this helps.
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Berthiers are 4 groove, right hand twist. I haven't measured recently, but I recall they were 1:10". So no, they are not the same as Lebel rifling.
 
Thanks smellie.
I wasn't sure what weight of bullet would be needed for Gras.Since those rifles where rebarelled in 1914 I'm hoping its 1:10 like Lebels.1 turn in 21.65 inches probably applies to early Gras in original caliber.

I found some vague info on the net mentioning use of Gras and early Mauser rifles by "Papal Zouaves" or "zouaves canadiens" in 1920's.Some American sites credit them as source of those rifles in North America.Very interesting history ,if it is true.
This is the first time i have ever heard of Papal Zouaves formations even if they served purely ceremonial role in Canada.I wonder whatever happened to them.

The more i dig the more i want this rifle :)
 
"I found some vague info on the net mentioning use of Gras and early Mauser rifles by "Papal Zouaves" or "zouaves canadiens" in 1920's.Some American sites credit them as source of those rifles in North America.Very interesting history ,if it is true."

Yes it is true, I posted that Info on Gunboards a long time ago, unfortunately they never quote me as the source. But here in Quebec, the Zouave connection is well known. The Quebec Zouaves used many types of rifles over their long history. The most common were the Gras 1871/80/14, the Swiss Vertelli 1869/71, the US Remington Rolling in 50-70 (Most of these assorted rifles were supposed to have been purchased from Bannerman's of New York, a large Surplus dealer active up to the late 1950's.) One of the last local units in Coaticook, QC even used some Lee-Enfield No.1 MKIII* in the early 1960's. A side note, the Gras 1874/80/14 is a fairly rare rifle, since most of the one left in French Service were destroyed during the Nazis Occupation after the French defeat of 1940.


- This is the first time i have ever heard of Papal Zouaves formations even if they served purely ceremonial role in Canada.I wonder whatever happened to them.

The Quebec Papal Zouaves came to be during the Italian uprising by Garibaldi, the Papal Lands were under attack and two Regiments were raised and were sent over to Italy to defend the Pope from the Revolutionnary Forces. The Regiments were armed with French Army rifle-muskets and participated in a number of Battles. After the War and the return of the Zouave Regiments to Quebec, it was decided that the Zouaves should be maintained across the Province in every Parish in case the Pope needed them again. Naturally, it became more a Social Organisation used mostly in Parade and Religious celebrations. It was for a time a very large organisation with training camps in the Summer, rivaling the Canadian Militia. The mouvement died out in the 1960's, but I know of at least one group still operating in Valleyfield, QC comprised of elderly Gentlemen working as Ushers in the local church at Sunday Services. A small Village near Lac Megantic, QC was founded by some returning Veterans of the Zouaves Regiments and it was named Piopolis (City of the Pope in honour of Pope Pius IX) to celebrate their Service to the Pope in his time of need. In a way, the Zouaves were probably the first 0rganised Canadians Troops to serve in Foreign Overseas War, before that most Canadians served or volontered on an Individual basis (Peninsular Campaign War of 1812 or US Civil War).

Photo of a Quebec Zouave Uniform circa 1950, Gras Model 1874 bayonet can be seen on the snake belt.

1287.jpg
 
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