would like to get into long range shooting

Despite what some say, the 6BR does not have a hold on LR accuracy especially if the wind blows.

The 6BR can be just as effective as a standard 243 - 2800fps with a 105gr bullet is plenty for mule deer at normal hunting distances.

If you are going to reach out and touch something, bigger is usually better with the 7RM my favorite baseline.

In F open out to 1000yds, there are precious few 6mm's being shot. Most are 6.5's and a rapidly growing number of 7mm's and a few 30's. Am unaware of a single LR F Open match that was won by a 6mm anything this season.

Mechanical accuracy is certainly very high in the 6BR family of cases but practical accuracy at LR is greatly tied to bullet BC and the lack of wind drift.

Here there are many better options.

Another very easy to tune option is the 260Rem and improved version. I shoot the 6.5 Mystic and 260 improved. Now into my 7th barrel from 4 makers. all my barrels have their accuracy node within 1gr of each other. Most within 2 tenths.

This in barrels from 26" to 30". all 8 twist. both cut and bottom rifled. 139gr Lapua Scenar and 140gr Berger VLD. win cases, CCI BR2 and Wolf primers.

Best part, chatting with other shooters, they are using very similar loads.

Redding now offers a 260 improved body die as a tier 2 option (off the shelf but more money). Tells you how much this chambering has moved into the main stream.

6.5X284 speed without the wear and tear.
Jerry
 
In F open out to 1000yds, there are precious few 6mm's being shot. Most are 6.5's and a rapidly growing number of 7mm's and a few 30's. Am unaware of a single LR F Open match that was won by a 6mm anything this season.
Click to expand...

You should actually participate in long range F-Class before passing judgement on the tools used. Fripp and I have both won LR matches this year. He using a 6 dasher and me with a BR.
 
Don't get to many as life/work gets in the way. But seem to do ok at the ones I do get to

See you in a couple of weeks :)

Sure dont see the 6mm's in many results. Point me in the right direction if I am wrong.

Jerry
 
.260

So off I go reading for hours about .260. I think this caliber with a fast twist for heavier bullets and a 26"ish barrel is the exact thing I'm looking for. Great at the range pushing it as far as I'm capable (which is what it will do most), and still capable of ethically hunting deer at respectable distance (If I ever decide to go out with my uncles).

Now I'm a total newb at reloading but I know I will be the type to enjoy it and I plan on kitting up for it so my question is, is the Ackley worth it for the difference and is it difficult / expensive to do all the resizing etc. they talk about?

TCross02x300.jpg


Cartridge---Bullet---BC---MuzzleVelocity---Drop @ 1000---Windage@1000 10mph---Vel@1000

.308 Win 175gr SMK 0.496 2700 fps 407.4" 90.9" 1290 fps
.260 Rem 123gr Lapua 0.547 2950 fps 314.8" 69.8" 1542
.260 Rem 142gr SMK 0.595 2800 fps 338.0" 67.5" 1531 fps
.260 AI 123gr Lapua 0.547 3020 fps 299.1" 67.4" 1588 fps
.260 AI 139gr Lapua 0.615 2935 fps 300.3" 60.3" 1658 fps
6.5-284 142gr SMK 0.595 3000 fps 290.6" 60.9" 1668 fps
 
The 260AI or my 6.5 Mystic (a bit bigger but very similar) does require forming brass and some prep but once that is done, long case life and consistent performance. The brass prep is the same regardless of chambering so it is the same work load for me.

Trimming is a very rare occurance and I have gone through more barrels then batches of brass. Annealing is key to this longevity.

The only issue is the time it takes to fireform - I use a light load of pistol powder and cornmeal - and there is no real wear on the barrel. Cost is pennies to do.

This is the only chamberings I have shot for F class and one of the several for my LR endeavors and it has done very well for me.

The velocities you listed are easily reached with moderate pressure and the part I like the most, is the ease of tuning out vertical.

I have shot both 139gr Scenar and 140gr Bergers. Both perform wonderfully over H4831SC, CCI BR2 or Wolf primer, in Winchester 308W brass.

I do throat the standard chamber longer so I can get the best seating for the boattail in the case. Overall length is close to 3". I single feed.

Dies are no problem as you can use 260rem dies for neck sizing and seating and Redding now offers a body die specific to this chambering. I used the Redding 7-08AI body die and it has worked superbly. Still have 1 for sale.

I did alot of research when I was looking at a cartridge to use in F open. For me, this offers the best combo of ballistics, cost and recoil. Others have done very well with this too.

However, with the growing popularity of the 7mm's, this 6.5 will give up some in the wind at LR.

The sharp shoulder, no taper case design is not ideal for staggered mags and most will not allow the bullet to be seated far enough to matter.

In the new Savage Center feed, you can make it feed very nicely and the mag is long enough that I could shoot my F class ammo if desired. however, you will only get 3rds in the mag where a 260Rem would go 4.

For hunting, a 140gr leaving at 2800fps is plenty of deer getting medicine. Moose too as the Scandinavians have proven for over a century.

Jerry
 
mysticplayer said:
Sure dont see the 6mm's in many results. Point me in the right direction if I am wrong.

Jerry
Click to expand...


http://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/showthread.php?p=4827596#post4827596

1st and 2nd place finishers were 6BR and 6 Dasher respectively.

At least 6 of the F-O shooters that I know of were shooting 6mm's, some of the ppl I didn't know and am unaware of what caliber they were shoooting.

The remainder were 6.5 and 7mm cartridges.

This was a 700, 800 and 900m shoot in less than ideal conditions.

If the gun is shootimg well and the trigger puller can read the wind/mirage then the cartridge is really irrelevant.

When you run into winds like we experienced in Winnipeg the BC of the bullet has less bearing on the outcome than the shooters ability to hold off at the correct place. When 1 shot at a 900m target is a target edge hold (3ft off center of target) and the next shot is a V or 5 ring hold (5-10 inches off center of target) then the shooter better know that if he misses the call by even 1/2 the margin that his score on target is going to be a 2 or 3 rather than a 5 or V.
 
Last edited:
CyaN1de said:
http://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/showthread.php?p=4827596#post4827596

1st and 2nd place finishers were 6BR and 6 Dasher respectively.

At least 6 of the F-O shooters that I know of were shooting 6mm's, some of the ppl I didn't know and am unaware of what caliber they were shoooting.

The remainder were 6.5 and 7mm cartridges.

This was a 700, 800 and 900m shoot in less than ideal conditions.

If the gun is shootimg well and the trigger puller can read the wind/mirage then the cartridge is really irrelevant.

When you run into winds like we experienced in Winnipeg the BC of the bullet has less bearing on the outcome than the shooters ability to hold off at the correct place. When 1 shot at a 900m target is a target edge hold (3ft off center of target) and the next shot is a V or 5 ring hold (5-10 inches off center of target) then the shooter better know that if he misses the call by even 1/2 the margin that his score on target is going to be a 2 or 3 rather than a 5 or V.
Click to expand...

I completely agree. It is nice to have a tool that is a bit more forgiving, but long-range shooting is as much art as science. That forgivness comes at the price of substantially more recoil and powder, not to mention barrel ware versus a 6mm. A BR is a great cartridge to get into precision long distance shooting.

The (your) 6BR I shot in Winnipeg on the worst day of the match at 900 and 1000 yards kept in the top 3. The best shooters won 1st and second that day, not the best bullet. There were plenty of 6mm guns at the Western Canadian F-Class Championship.
 
Obtunded, any decisions on what chambering the Cdn F open team will take to Raton in a few years? Will it be 6BR's for all?????


We have already had this discussion and I for one, am not happy about the direction F Open is taking GLOBALLY. I think the quest for ballistics is going to drive the costs up and the recoil HIGHER. At the same time reducing interest and turnout.

The benefits of the 7mm have been shown in a number of big matches over the last 3yrs when the top shooters from around the world have competed.

Right or wrong, the desire and momentum to build bigger higher BC slug throwers have begun in ernst. Will it last?

Will shooters actually BE ABLE to shoot these rifles to their potential?

Will they loose interest after they see how crazy costs will get?

F Open shooters are going to have to make some tough decisions as they look forward on which chambering to champion especially if looking at larger international matches. Right now, bigger is better seems to be the song being sung.

I shot the 6BR long before it was an 'in' cartridge so know all too well what a wonderful cartridge this can be. BUT LR ballistics are there for all to study and compare.

Does it really matter? More and more Top shooters seem to feel it does. Have a look at the results from big matches in the US and offshore from 800 out to 1200yds. What's winning?

What were the top 3 shooters using at the big Cdn matches this season?

Me, I will likely not follow the F Open gear war and go build myself a nice 223 to play in F TR.

If all goes well, I'll have a ballistic advantage. maybe even enough to keep up with the F Open rigs :)

Jerry
 
The Canadian National Team caliber/bullet choice will be a matter of confidentiality in the short term, but it has not been decided; what cartridge that gets used to propel the bullet is a matter of personal latitiude.

I have done (and continue to do) a great deal of research into the issue and have spoken exhaustively with many Canadian and international long-distance F-Class Shooters along the way. There is a tremendous amount of difference between what looks good on paper and what works well at long range in the real world. More important than bullets, we want to prepare our shooters to WIN at Raton, and that takes training and preparation including mastery of what they use.

The heavy thirties, 7mm's, and even 6.5's are all on the table. (The 10-shot 1000 yard HGBR record was set with a 300 WSM, and the USFCC Individual FO winner was using a 300 WSM as well) We will likely be using a Canadian-made custom bullet because the nonsense with the mass-produced bullet supply is just stupid. Berger donated 50,000 Palma bullets to its national team; we're lucky if we can get a handshake.... even CGN failed to make a promised sticky about our team fund-raiser. We have incredible moral support from Canada's custom bullet makers and I think a Canadian bullet would be a nice touch.

Regardless of what the best shooters in Canada will be taking to the world championships, the new or precision-curious shooter would do well to spend time at a local match to see what the majority of people really use, what they really achieve and use, what choices exist out there to meet their requirement.
 
Cdn bullet supply would indeed be a nice touch. Hope it works out as planned.

MO, no real secret. The cartridge options are very well known and been contested for a few years now. The big issues are the COMPROMISES involved.

As mentioned previously, the big dogs have been campaigning big cartridges and doing very well at extended distances:

1) Who can offer bullets? Right now BERGER is the main supply of the desired gems. Great bullets, very slow to supply and most definitely on a priority basis. There is a very real reason to be concerned about going with a 'foreign' bullet then fighting to get enough supply.

However, Cdn suppliers, with enough notice can certainly go to bat for the team and move things along. Happy to help if asked.

With a Cdn bullet, components to make the bullet become the next risk. As far as I know, jackets are still controlled by one manf and guess what - they are US and are the same guys supplying Berger and most of the NA bullet makers. Now if this Can manf also decided to draw their own jackets, now that would be exciting.

Then there is testing and the time to make the bullet tooling. Again, the tooling comes from the US. Takes forever and then whatever is produced still has to be R&D'ed.

If already produced and being shot, fantastic but if R&D is involved, that can be a real road block as even the big bullet makers run into trouble late in their development cycle.

Now if a new VLD could be invented in a non common set up. That would be ubber exciting and change the landscape of options. Think JLK 6.5 155gr VLD. Nope, we can't get it but it exists and has been used by one of US winniest F Open shooters - very nice and helpful guy.

2) Costs - the 7's I keep refering to is anything that will push a 180gr VLD at least 2800fps. Most are going towards 3000fps and this simply means a magnum that we are all familiar with.

The 284 and variants are popular and on the slow end of this race. The 7RSAUM and WSM are the typical boomer considered. various wildcats based off other parent cases like the 376 Steyr and some Euro chambering are also being played with and doing nicely.

With these magnums, the issue is barrel wear which is horrendous. The type of match winning accuracy desired is likely found in the first 800rds of use.

Not going into a match with 800rds fired but finishing a match with 800rds fired. When a match can be 300+ rds, you are essentially competing with new pipes.

You still need to develop a load, fireform brass, and of most importance PRACTISE.

The entire team using the same basic set up so testing should transfer quickly across the team but that will eat 1 or 2 barrels. Then each shooters needs to dial in SEVERAL barrels so they can put aside the very best pipe for the matches and use the 'lesser' ones for practise and training.

How many thousand rds will a team member shoot before Raton? Berger donated a mere 50,000bullets to the cause. The individual shooters likely had to shell out for more.

Assuming a decent rate of practise, 100rds per week would be a min. Add in 100 to 300rds per match X how many matches a season, etc, etc, etc. You are into some big shooting.

I would suspect that EACH shooter shot 5000rds per season for practise and match shooting (likely a low estimate). I shoot around 1500rd and I don't get much time to practise or go to matches and my matches have very low rd counts.

If a top quality barrel is toast around 1000rds, how much is each bang costing the shooter. My estimates are $1.50 to 2 per shot all in

3) Down time - with so many barrels needed and so many installs needed, it would be ideal to have one or two actions and a fleet of barrels machined and ready for a quick swap. The initial down time would be a few months then things would just be in the ammo prep

This doesn't account for any wear and tear so I would certainly want a backup action to go with my many barrels. Whatever action is chosen, access to spare parts better be easy or we are back to square one waiting for a foreign supply.

See how quickly this gets silly expensive AND we haven't even left the airport either for in Canada matches and practices and also, the occasional US match to see how things are comparing.

4) RECOIL - This is rearing its ugly head in a big way. There have been a number of top US shooters give up on the bigger cals cause they just couldn't handle the beating over a long match. I have personally put a cap on how big my rifle would be and this leaves alot of change on the table. Something that you simply can't do when going up against the best of the world.

What technology is needed to help ease this issue? How well will the selected shooters do with this much fun? Will they even want to shoot something this big?

How do you account for injury?

I don't get to many matches but it certainly doesn't mean I am not monkey braining the F class game. Likely more then most shooters.

The last 3 yrs have shown a window into the future and that future looks BIG. The US F Open team went with the 6.5X284 for several years and have been soundly beaten by those shooting 7's. Home tuff advantage? Bad relays? Not enough 4 leaf clovers?

It really doesn't matter. Simple fact is that the teams that have been shooting 7's have so far dominated the sport at the international level - yes, great shooters gear, training, wind coaches, BIG budgets, the whole story.

When everyone is superb at reading conditions AND has a home turf advantage (or at least shot there how many times) AND uses the best ballistic option (don't worry these boomer are superbly accurate), what would you compromise on?????

Been there, done the math, got the conclusions.... not very pretty.

But nothing a healthy heaping of $$$$ can't resolve.

Hope this answers your question.

Jerry
 
Our ability to overcome every equipment issue is directly proportional to the availability of money with which to do so. We need to do the best we can with what we CAN GET.

Jerry, We would be happy to use Berger 7mm 180 or the 308 155.5. Would you or Berger be willing to donate to donate 50,000 bullets to the CANADIAN teams?
 
From me, donate no. But I can sure get you great pricing and help with logistics.

As for support from Berger, that is something I would be happy to discuss but likely they are looking for a program that gives them good advertising exposure.

What's in it for them?????

As I have said in the past, I am willing to look at and help the Cdn F class program as much as possible. Putting me on the spot to give $25,000 worth of merchandise on an open forum seems a little silly.

Not very professional.

And I don't think Berger would be too keen on this style of discussion either.

Especially when you have indicated other plans. This is an open forum and yes, people are reading the posts.

If the goal is corporate sponsorship, better get busy and putting your marketing package together.

Hope this helps...
Jerry
 
thank you for all the info I think I will go with the good old 308win to start it cheap to reload so I can shoot more to get better at long ranges now how about rifle does anyone know about the kimber 8400 advanced tactical or sould a guy build one from alberta tactical
 
hornchaser said:
thank you for all the info I think I will go with the good old 308win to start it cheap to reload so I can shoot more to get better at long ranges now how about rifle does anyone know about the kimber 8400 advanced tactical or sould a guy build one from alberta tactical
Click to expand...

Hornchaser,
Come out this weekend and see the F Class match west of Calgary. This is my first year competing and it is a blast. There is an F Factory sub category where the guys are shooting factory HB 308's. What better way to get some experience that doing that? PM or email me for some more details.

As a rookie this year, the club members have bent over backwards to assist me (and the other newbs) in getting into the groove. I started out with my 6.5-284 Cooper because it was the most accurate rifle I owned it but I am switching to my 700 VSF in 308 so I can be in the factory class.

As a guy who has been reloading for 35 years and shooting over 3000 rounds most years, I found out I knew next to nothing about HITTING at long ranges. It is a complete eye opener. I figure that by the time I shoot out the 308 barrel I will know barely enough to decide what to build/shoot so I can really start learning.

While a custom build rig is nice, you would be starting out in F Open. A factory 308 would be your best bang for the buck to wear out your first barrel. IF you started with a Rem, you would have a platform to build your next one on. I talked by buddy into a TRG-22 to start (living vicariously through his wallet )

Hope to see you this weekend!
Joe P.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom