Loose powder inna 'pellet' gun?

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trevj

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I has joined the ranks of the 209 primer crowd!

Was at P&D on Saturday, and they had a table of fire sale priced Rossi guns.

I came out with a .50 Cal frontstuffer, and a box of primers, and got a bunch of change back off a hundred bucks. A bud couldn't pass up on a three barrel set for two hundred (.17HR/.270 Win/.50 ML, w.case).

Soooo...

I read the book o' words. Yeah, I know. Who does that, eh? They pretty much assume that a person is gonna use pellets. I'm not that enthused about them. Not at the prices, anyway. Might grab some to try, though.

Anyone using loose Black Powder in a 209 gun? I'm pondering that, as I have some around. I figure it'll give me the ability to run smaller charges for dickin' around at the range or out in the boonies, too. Like 50 grains of FFg range. Make for reasonable priced shooting, I figure.

Should be a fun addition to the stable!

Cheers
Trev
 
the only thing i could think of would be to be sure and PACK THE POWDER TIGHTLY- after all, what's a pellet but a load of compressed powder-pour your powder charge, then your bullet, compress, and then compress some more- get it as tight as you possibly can- typically, when i used to do black powder, i got it so tight you could see the powder charge coming up through the nipple-
 
I am curious as to the reason blackpowder has to be well packed. I know absolutly nothing about blackpowder, but I'm always learning here on gun nuts.
 
Thankyou fishhog. I saw those 209's, and it raises another question. How fast are the pellets moving, propelled by a shotgun primer?
 
i disagree- you don't want any airgaps in the powder charge, and that can happen if it's not properly packed down- and i have a 58 zouve with a bulged barrel to prove it- it SHOULD have blown up, but it was good ITALIAN steel and i managed to lift the hammer to release the pressure -there was an AIR GAP between 2 charges of 60 grains of ffg behind a 500 grain minie- usually the bullet with compress the powder enough to eliminate something like that , but this time it stuck
 
mkrainc said:
Thankyou fishhog. I saw those 209's, and it raises another question. How fast are the pellets moving, propelled by a shotgun primer?
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Uhhhh.... You realize that the pellets are the propellant, ignited by the shotgun primer, right? Or not?:confused: It'll sling a 50 cal ball or bullet a fair clip.

Google for Pyrodex Pellets or Triple-seven pellets.

You want the projectile seated over the powder, but you definitely do not need to pack it down till it starts squeezing out the flash hole by any means.

I couldn't really figure out why there was no mention at all about the use of loose powder in the book on this one. Good enough. Got a line on a couple molds for different bullets to try. Should make a good rabbit gun! :D

Cheers
Trev
 
t-star said:
i disagree- you don't want any airgaps in the powder charge, and that can happen if it's not properly packed down- and i have a 58 zouve with a bulged barrel to prove it- it SHOULD have blown up, but it was good ITALIAN steel and i managed to lift the hammer to release the pressure -there was an AIR GAP between 2 charges of 60 grains of ffg behind a 500 grain minie- usually the bullet with compress the powder enough to eliminate something like that , but this time it stuck
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You "managed to lift the hammer to release the pressure".........when??...what??....huh??...WTF are you talking about?:confused:

Your bullet wasn't seated on the charge....it's called a "barrel obstruction".How do you get an "air gap" between "2 charges of 60 grains of ffg"??Again..wtf?Are these pre-fabbed,paper wrapped charges?Regardless,if the bullet was seated properly,ie:your ramrod was plunged down to the correct "normal" position...how do you get an airgap(most likely between the powder and bullet) ??

There's no need to pack the livin $hit outta BP....a couple taps of the butt on the ground or your foot,or a couple taps on the side of the barrel with your short starter is plenty,and if your ramrod isn't going down to the normal depth(good idea to mark the rod),then your asking for trouble.

Air gap between the charges....:jerkit:....how da hell did you come up with that conclusion?
 
t-star said:
i disagree- you don't want any airgaps in the powder charge, and that can happen if it's not properly packed down- and i have a 58 zouve with a bulged barrel to prove it- it SHOULD have blown up, but it was good ITALIAN steel and i managed to lift the hammer to release the pressure -there was an AIR GAP between 2 charges of 60 grains of ffg behind a 500 grain minie- usually the bullet with compress the powder enough to eliminate something like that , but this time it stuck
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There is no need to tamp the #### out of the charge. Just make sure the bullet/ball is seated onto the powder.
Your story above is a major wtf ?
 
No idea how you could get an air gap between loose powder or how you could release the pressure......

Anyhow, sabots should not be tamped down but pushed down with a constant amount of pressure. Slip the short starter ball over the end of the rod and seat with constant pressure, not a tamping motion. This is the key to safety and accuracy. Pellets or powder, it doesn't matter. Pellets offer up a bit more speed over loose but you pay for the performance.
 
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My apologies. When the 209 was mentioned, I thought it was the Davide Pederson 209 Hawk Rifle that Marstar has. It shoots a .177 caliber pellet that is propelled only by a shotun primer.

I thought the original question was if someone had added blackpowder to enhance the charge. Kind of scarey, eh?
 
sheephunter said:
No idea how you could get an air gap between loose powder or how you could release the pressure......

Anyhow, sabots should not be tamped down but pushed down with a constant amount of pressure. Slip the short starter ball over the end of the rod and seat with constant pressure, not a tamping motion. This is the key to safety and accuracy. Pellets or powder, it doesn't matter. Pellets offer up a bit more speed over loose but you pay for the performance.
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you release the pressure by raising the hammer- the gas then escapes out the nipple- it acted for all the world like a damp powder, and did a lot of fizzing and spitting, but then it took off, one big boom, and a slight delay, and another boom- and then the bullet came out the muzzel- that's why i say there was an air gap between the charges- i normally run about a hundred grains of ffg , but i didn't have my horn with me that day, and the flask only throws 60- the horn throws 100 in one fell swoop-
 
I use loose Pyrodex RS in my BP .50 cal. It's always better to compress the load, was it only for consistence. When I unload my gun without firing it, the powder holds together like a pellet. From what I've been able to gather from Hodgdon, we should stay within 100 grains max of loose powder, even in guns made for "150 grains". Also, the velocity was always higher when I chronied loose BP over pellets.
 
t-star said:
you release the pressure by raising the hammer- the gas then escapes out the nipple- it acted for all the world like a damp powder, and did a lot of fizzing and spitting, but then it took off, one big boom, and a slight delay, and another boom- and then the bullet came out the muzzel- that's why i say there was an air gap between the charges- i normally run about a hundred grains of ffg , but i didn't have my horn with me that day, and the flask only throws 60- the horn throws 100 in one fell swoop-
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well 1st of all,you have balls.Raising the hammer to release pressure woulda been the last thing I'd probly of done when it was spitting and sputtering...probly would threw the gun and run for cover,lol.

I can't understand how there could be 2 booms with a delay in between,even if there was some sort of "air gap",which I have no idea how you get with loose powder to begin with,but let's say it was 2 pellets for instance,the booms shoulda went simultaneously,or at least indistinguishable difference to human ears?

any chance you had a double charge in there...that sounds more logical?powder/bullet and another powder/bullet charge on top of that?The two distinct,delayed booms just makes no sense at all with nothing but air between the 2 dumpings of powder?

BTW,has anybody ever told ya that loading directly from a horn is a really bad idea?It may look cool and all Davy Crocket like,but it's a good way to blow your hand off or worse if there's a hot ember in the chamber.You'd likely be banished from most clubs and any sanctioned shoots I know of if you were seen doing that....jest sayin.
 
My two bits worth, without having seen the actual event.

By packing the powder down until it started to extrude from the vent, you would have prevented the flame from reaching the main charge, and caused the hang fire.

It sounds to me like it initially popped, when the cap went, pushing the remainder of the powder up the barrel where it eventually went off to bad ends.

Anything that results in other than a near instant ignition, is pretty much a sign that something is going poorly. If you are able to get the same poor results of click whoosh hiss boom, or worse, click hiss boom boom, instead of clickboom, with any consistency, it'd be time to look at technique.

Pounding the powder too tight seems a bad idea. Pellets have holes in them, to allow the flame of the primer or cap to reach the surface. Even when you look at the BP cartridge side of the house, the best results seem to come from a limited amount of compression, rather than trying to turn the stuff into a single grain.

'Seated on the charge' has always meant to me that it gets seated with a two or three finger grip on the ramrod, not beaten down on the ramrod till it bruises my hands.

Sorry man, but your experience seems more a tale of technique gone bad, rather than a good way to do things.

Bummer about the ringed barrel!

Cheers
Trev
 
fill it full of powder and blow it to kindom *** its junk the receiver will fowell after 3 or4 stot and when the 270 heats up after 2 shots who knows were those bullets are going the 17 is fun but if you buy a 93 you can see what 17 will really shoot like
 
tigbomg said:
fill it full of powder and blow it to kindom *** its junk the receiver will fowell after 3 or4 stot and when the 270 heats up after 2 shots who knows were those bullets are going the 17 is fun but if you buy a 93 you can see what 17 will really shoot like
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WTF does that mean?
 
i believe what's he's TRYING to say ( and again it makes NO SENSE)
IS "fill it full of powder and blow it to kingdom come( very BAD ADVICE-we're STILL very carefull when loading black, use MEASURED charges -even moreso than reloaders) it's JUNK- ( BUT NO ANECDOTAL EVIDENCE), the receiver will foul after 3 or 4 shots( duh- that's why you CLEAN after every shot) and when a 270 "heats up" after 2 shots, who knows where those bullets are going?( complete fallicy- why do you think we shoot 3-5 shot groups?)
the .17 is fun, but if you buy a 93 ,you can see what a 17 will REALLY shoot like- completely off topic
 
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