How to carry Dominion Outlaw?

elimsprint said:
What does that have to do with a HD situation which is what I was talking about. mlehtovaara said he would only use buckshot for home defence and I was disagreeing with him and stating that birdshot was best for that purpose for many reasons, one of which was overpenetration. R1-Dave and supernova seem to agree with me. I really don't know what shooting game has to do with it. You still haven't even said what it is you disagree with.
Kim
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I disagree with using birdshots for HD.
 
mlehtovaara said:
Birdshot is made for that very reason!

I do agree it will stop most any intruder though, but it depends if you are shooting to stop the intruder slowly, or blow him to pieces!
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I defy you to show me the difference between wounds made by buckshot and birdshot at a distance of 10 yds.
Kim
 
mlehtovaara said:
Talking to a few cops at the range a few weeks ago, one mentioned being in a shootout, and having to shoot the suspect 12 times while his partner shot him 10.

They were talking about how f**ked up the guy was, and even after a few shots to the chest he kept coming at them with a knife.
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I searched and searched and I can't find one story in the media regarding a suspect getting shot 22 times here in Canada. Maybe post a link or did this not rate a story in the media?
Kim
 
mlehtovaara said:
Birdshot doesn't even penetrate straight through a grouse at 10 yards, never mind an intruder!
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Hit a grouse full on with a 12ga birdshot load at 10 yds and all you'll have is a grouse smear, at least with any shotgun I own. That said I do not have a cylinder choke gun to try but I don't think it would make a huge difference compared to a modified choke.
Kim
 
I know your an internet expert but I will stick to the guys who actually do some testing in regards to their recommendations. They also have credible stories from law enforcement officers, if mine was not good enough for you!

Quote from "Box O Truth" from their penetration testing.
3xw.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3_2.htm

Lessons learned:
1. Notice that the #4 and #1 Buck penetrated 6 boards. In previous tests, 9mm, .45 ACP, and M-193 out of an AR all penetrated all 12 boards.

So, it seems that these loads do not "over-penetrate" as much as some have led us to believe.

The 00 Buck penetrated 8 boards, but was stopped by the 9th. Still not as much penetration as the pistol or rifle loads.

The slug penetrated all 12 boards.

2. Once again, please notice the size of the entrance spreads....2 1/2" to 3 1/2". Therefore, anyone that says, "With a shotgun, you don't even have to aim. Just point it in the general area of the bad guy, and you can't miss", does not know what they are talking about.

You can very easily miss with a shotgun. You must aim to hit your target.

3. The slugs were "bad" penetrators. By that, I mean that they will penetrate several interior walls. If you have loved ones in your home, consider this as you select your home defense weapon.

4. I "racked" the shotgun several times during the tests, and no bystanders lost control of their bowels.
Conclusion: Racking a shotgun will not make the bad guy faint.

Frankly, I was surprised that the shotgun did not penetrate more than it did. I had been led to believe that they penetrated more than a .223 rifle or a 9mm or .45 ACP. Such was not the case.

Amazing what you can learn by doing a little testing.

Birdshot as a Defense Load
I have had a lot of questions, summed up as follows: How effective is birdshot (#4, #6, #8, etc.) as a defense load?

We have done tests with various birdshot loads. Birdshot penetrated through two pieces of drywall (representing one wall) and was stopped in the paper on the front of the second wall. The problem with birdshot is that it does not penetrate enough to be effective as a defense round. Birdshot is designed to bring down little birds.

A policeman told of seeing a guy shot at close range with a load of 12 gauge birdshot, and was not even knocked down. He was still walking around when the EMTs got there. It was an ugly, shallow wound, but did not STOP the guy. And that is what we want... to STOP the bad guy from whatever he is doing. To do this, you must have a load that will reach the vitals of the bad guy. Birdshot will not do this.

In fact, tests have shown that even #4 Buckshot lacks the necessary penetration to reach the vital organs. Only 0 Buck, 00 Buck, and 000 Buck penetrate enough to reach the vital organs.

Unless you expect to be attacked by little birds, do not use birdshot. Use 00 Buck. It will do the job.

But doesn't 00 Buck penetrate too much in interior walls to be a "safe" load in a home?
Yes, it does penetrate a lot. But any load that is going to be effective will need to penetrate walls to have enough power to penetrate bad guys. If our only concern was to be sure we didn't penetrate walls, we would use BB guns. However, BB guns will not stop bad guys.

Therefore, we must use loads that will STOP bad guys, and this means that they will also penetrate walls. So, be sure you hit the bad guy and do not shoot into walls where loved ones are on the other side.

When To Use Birdshot
A friend of AR15.com sends this:

"I saw a gunshot victim, about 5' 10" and 200 lbs, taken to the operating room with a shotgun wound to the chest. He was shot at a range of six feet at a distance of just over the pectoralis muscle. He was sitting on his front porch and walked to the ambulance. We explored the chest after x-rays were taken. The ER doc had said 'buckshot' wound, but this was obviously not accurate.

It was # 6 shot. There was a crater in the skin over an inch in diameter. When the shot hit the level of the ribs, it spread out about five inches. There was ONE pellet that had passed between the ribs and entered the pericardium, but not damaged the heart at all. As you say, 'use birdshot for little birds.'"
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How to carry a DO? Like this.


600px-Gf-shotguns2.jpg
 
elimsprint said:
I read the article and all I got out of it was that buckshot and slugs overpenetrate for HD and a bunch of unsubstantiated stories about birdshots effectiveness.
Kim
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But we should take your internet posts as truth though, right?:jerkit:

You have yet to show me even an unsubstantiated story about the effectiveness of birdshot for home defence!
 
elimsprint said:
I searched and searched and I can't find one story in the media regarding a suspect getting shot 22 times here in Canada. Maybe post a link or did this not rate a story in the media?
Kim
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There was a shooting in Barrie a year or so ago, man with a knife went at a pair of cops, one cop was badly stabbed and they used a high number (I don't recall the number) of rounds to stop the guy.

Maybe that's the one.

edit: Never mind, that was 6 rounds.
 
I once saw a guy on meth take 4 kicks to the junk with duty boots on and he never felt it just kept fighting back.

Use what you have for defense just make sure you know how to use it. practice practice practice. there are alot of firearm owners who just think by owning a gun makes you skilled. It take thousands of round to become familar with what ever platform you are using.
A person with loads of training with a .22lr is more effective than a normal joe with no training and a 12g.
this my dicks bigger than yours bs is getting to much on this site.
get out and shoot, only then will you not panic and waste precious seconds fumbling around. muscle memory, stop fighting over what round is best and go out and shoot.
to many internet wannabes.

sorry for the rant.
 
elimsprint said:
I defy you to show me the difference between wounds made by buckshot and birdshot at a distance of 10 yds.
Kim
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Not that I have a dog in this fight, but really, "defy you"?

Birdshot, any shot, does not act like a slug. The pellets would have to stick, and they don't.

Buckshot after passing through a two sheets of drywall. Note the penetration is almost 19.5 inches, well enough for immediate incapacitation:
woundprofilesAfterWall.jpg


Oh look, now some birdshot. No intermediate barrier, just shot at ballistic gelatin from ten feet: max penetration of just over 5 inches. Not enough for reliable immediate incapacitation. Not even close.
birdshotWoundProfile.JPG


Consider yourself defied. You could have "googled" this yourself, but were too lazy.
 
"There is no point arguing with him. He is free to use whatever he wants. This is beyond the scope of this thread. "

Yeah; I seem to recall starting this thread.

I just wanted to know how safe it is to carry the Outlaw Shotgun. A few posted good info.

Apparently it is safe to carry either with the hammers down (hammers don't rest on the firing pins), or cocked and locked (it has a manual safety lever).

As for birdshot vs buckshot; I don't really care since I would be using slugs to kill a bear that was about to eat me. And I would wait until he was close enough to actually eat me before I shot him. 30 yards away is hardly what I would call self-defense.
 
mlehtovaara said:
But we should take your internet posts as truth though, right?:jerkit:

You have yet to show me even an unsubstantiated story about the effectiveness of birdshot for home defence!
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I believe my original post was that buckshot is not the best choice for HD as it overpenetrates. The article you quoted seems to substantiate that statement. I never said birdshot was perfect, just that it is the safest as it usually won't go all the way through one layer of gyproc much less 6-10 layers. Or don't you care where any missed or stray pellets end up?
Kim
 
acrashb said:
Not that I have a dog in this fight, but really, "defy you"?

Birdshot, any shot, does not act like a slug. The pellets would have to stick, and they don't.

Buckshot after passing through a two sheets of drywall. Note the penetration is almost 19.5 inches, well enough for immediate incapacitation:
woundprofilesAfterWall.jpg


Oh look, now some birdshot. No intermediate barrier, just shot at ballistic gelatin from ten feet: max penetration of just over 5 inches. Not enough for reliable immediate incapacitation. Not even close.
birdshotWoundProfile.JPG


Consider yourself defied. You could have "googled" this yourself, but were too lazy.
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No I googled it, I just choose to interpret your data differently.
In the top chart I see proof that buckshot still has plenty of energy to easily kill or injure somebody even after passing through 30cm of ballistic gelatin, or the person you shot, and two layers of gyproc. Nuff said there.
In the second picture I see somebody with a 2-3" across 5" deep hole in their chest. That would certainly slow me down a bit and look, no danger to other people from over penetration. I know what I keep in my HD shotgun.
Kim
As to the OP's post, sorry for the thread diversion. I carry a 3" #4 birdshot and 2 slugs for BD when I am walking in the woods with buck and slugs and birdshot, 2 of each, in the shell carrier. HP9-1 14" with screw in chokes, usually modified.
 
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i like to keep imaginary bullets in my home defense shotgun. i find they're the best at fending off imaginary intruders.
 
elimsprint said:
In the second picture I see somebody with a 2-3" across 5" deep hole in their chest. That would certainly slow me down a bit and look, no danger to other people from over penetration. I know what I keep in my HD shotgun.
.
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There isn't any bones in that ballistic gelatine!

I challenge you to find me one person who we could call an expert, or one police force, swat team, tactical unit, defensive specialist, whatever to back up your idea that birdshot is capable of immediately incapacitating an intruder.

I don't argue that it won't hurt, but they would still have the capacity to continue attacking you!

I will admit I actually used to argue the same thing as you are when I first started thinking about home defence, and participating in some similar discussions here. The difference is I know how to admit that I am wrong, and after reading alot of accounts, and expert opinions I discovered I was indeed wrong!

Regardless you seem to not want to reason, and only abide by your personal opinion so this is a pointless discussion.

To the OP sorry for the derail!
 
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