US Military Replacing the M16? New XM8 Model

Rich LPS said:
Well not quite BS.

It was fielded with some West German (at the time West) troops and was doing quite well. HK had largely corrected the heat issues that they under-estimated in the original design, where the discarded brass casings were removing quite a bit of heat from the weapon. The case-less ammo was improved. The big issues were cost of the weapon and complexity (and expense) of the mechanism. I have not had a chance to shoot the G11 but have handled it an tore it down for examination. Brilliant weapon, points very natural and has good balance. The challenges in it's final stages were largely ammo related and were corrected.

It was a true quantum leap forward in weapon design.

Rich
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Was a great pity it was never adopted. Just bad timing (the fall of the Berlin wall). I wouldn't quite call it a full quantum leap but was certainly taking advantage of the most advantaged technology at the time and is a rifle far ahead of it's time.
 
While caseless ammunition is one way to the future, the concept of G11 (the weapon) itself is outdated. It was still based on the 70's and 80's obssession with small calibre multi-round bursts to make up hittability. It is a bulky system that is ok for mech infantry slugging out between trenches and AFV.

And we all know now - more rounds down range is not equal to hitting targets. People will be damned to use G11 for close range gun fighting.
 
Gunnerlove said:
I call BS.
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I call... peanut butter jelly time! :dancingbanana:

It's great saying something that needs no explanation, eh?...

Do a little research, Gunner. Apparently only a thousand were made and some were issued to the Bundeswehr.

@ beltfed, The G11s only came apart into 5 pieces for field stripping and because of the unique propellant of the 4.7mm there was very minimal fouling. Sounds good to me! :)

@ greentips, Ya it is old technology but the basic concept is what's brilliant. If some engineers could go over the technology and find a way to adapt it to our current level of tech and military requirement it would be great. With: lighter & more durable materials, slimmer/smaller profile (although the G11 is boxy, it's not actually all that big), higher caliber ammunition... like 10mm... LOL, j/k... but ya, would be awesome...

One can dream, though. Perhaps in a decade or two it'll become a reality (times by 3 for Canada). Assuming by then we're not using bows and arrows...
 
For those who haven't handled the G11 you might think it's big. In reality it is a bull-pup design and is quite handy. It looks bulky but is much lighter and handier than it looks. It could be well suited to CQB, with more appropriate sighting systems (red dot of some type).

I do agree that it's small calibre but the very high rate of fire is effective for higher hit probability. The Russian AN94 is a similar concept for increasing hit probability and for defeating hard body armor by delivering 2 or more strikes in very close proximity.

The other main advantage is the light weight case-less ammo. Way more ammo in a mag on board the gun and you can carry way more for the same weight as cased ammo.

Rich
 
Demon971 said:
@ beltfed, The G11s only came apart into 5 pieces for field stripping and because of the unique propellant of the 4.7mm there was very minimal fouling. Sounds good to me! :)
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Dude, I was making light of the way in which the CF chooses weapons...like the need for a 20" barreled rifle for drill purposes...hense the " :rolleyes: "
 
Demon971 said:
It's great saying something that needs no explanation, eh?...

Do a little research, Gunner. Apparently only a thousand were made and some were issued to the Bundeswehr.
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So they are or are not in use with German SF? Right they are not. So I still call BS on them being in service. I don't actually believe they were truly ever in service. Training for techs, spare parts and ammo in the supply system? How about a basic training course issued the G11?

The fact that a few rifles were delivered for T&E and photo ops changes nothing. It was an experimental rifle created to band aid a lack of marksmanship skill. It solved problems by creating new problems. What would the mag pouch for a 50 round single stack mag look like?
 
We had a G11 here briefly (the US Army has some they got ay back and still have them around for some testing programs) the damn thing is neat, but its a swiss fricken watch inside.
Current DARPA sponsored designs for CTA and CLA are more advanced.
 
Gunnerlove said:
So they are or are not in use with German SF? Right they are not. So I still call BS on them being in service. I don't actually believe they were truly ever in service. Training for techs, spare parts and ammo in the supply system? How about a basic training course issued the G11?

The fact that a few rifles were delivered for T&E and photo ops changes nothing. It was an experimental rifle created to band aid a lack of marksmanship skill. It solved problems by creating new problems. What would the mag pouch for a 50 round single stack mag look like?
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Bingo.
 
No the G11 is not in the Bundeswehr's inventory. It was fielded back in the early 90's, you are correct that it is not in use today. What's remarkable is that was a very long time ago, almost 20 years now. A very advanced concept 20 years ago, too bad there was not more money around to keep development going until today.

It was more than a few rifles for T&E and photo ops. I'm not exactly sure what you mean by creating new problems? The 50 round mag really wasn't that long and was fed along the top of the gun. So what, on a modern tac vest it would be easy to accommodate a few extra mags. A system would be needed to make access of them easier and end user friendly, not too hard to overcome. The Bundeswehr was moving ahead with plans to adopt the system, until reunification kicked the hell out of their economy.

There's always resistance to new kit, especially rifles. The M14 was crap compared to the M1G, the M16 was crap compared to the M14, the C7 was crap compared to the FNC1....and so on.... The old guys out there will always complain about the new kit. I for one like new concepts and development. I also like how some people become experts on kit they have only read about and not ever seen first hand.

Rich
 
Other tests in 1990 showed that of 60,000 rounds fired by a G11, the estimated ammunition failure rate was about 1/485 rounds, with a minimum cook-off rate of 150 rounds at 60 RPM. In early 1990 the German Army issued an official statement on the testing program, in which the rifle was said to have met all requirements, and was ready to be issued.
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Ready to be issued. Well you can dig around Janes and make your own decisions. Military and government puff media paved the future of the G11 in gold. But we never got to watch any of the teething problems. How do you really carry half a dozen 20 inch long magazines on the chest of a human? FN P90 mags are about a foot long and they were a PITA.
 
Rich LPS said:
There's always resistance to new kit, especially rifles. The M14 was crap compared to the M1G, the M16 was crap compared to the M14, the C7 was crap compared to the FNC1....and so on.... The old guys out there will always complain about the new kit. I for one like new concepts and development. I also like how some people become experts on kit they have only read about and not ever seen first hand.
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I have seen a G11 first hand. It was at an air show when I was a kid (got to hold it too :D). Seeing things first hand isn't always much different than going off of information from books, TV, and the internet. It's all still third rate information until you can actually examine, use, and take apart the thing to really know about it. I'm not an expert on the G11 and won't claim to be but it is one of my favorite firearms so I've taken more time to learn as much about it as I could.

The Deutschland Bundeswehr did have the G11 in the nineties, and did field it. Is it used now by them? Of course not. They've got the G36 and HK416. The German government cancelled the program shortly after most likely due to lack of funding after the East/West re-unification and NATOs policies about ammunition/magazines.

Gunnerlove said:
Ready to be issued. Well you can dig around Janes and make your own decisions. Military and government puff media paved the future of the G11 in gold. But we never got to watch any of the teething problems. How do you really carry half a dozen 20 inch long magazines on the chest of a human? FN P90 mags are about a foot long and they were a PITA.
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Ya, those magazines are pretty damn crazy. I'd figure they'd see the problem with it and redesign it or shorten it to 30 or 25 rounds. Fortunately, the rifle was designed to hold two magazines on either side of the one loaded into the rifle. I imagine that would make mag swapping somewhat easier until they blew away the three mags. If they had a tac/load-bearing vest I figure the pouches would likely go horizontal. Regardless, it's basically still just a prototype. Eventually many features would have been improved.
 
KevinB said:
We had a G11 here briefly (the US Army has some they got ay back and still have them around for some testing programs) the damn thing is neat, but its a swiss fricken watch inside.
Current DARPA sponsored designs for CTA and CLA are more advanced.
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You weren't freakin' kidding!

g11open.jpg
 
Come on, people. We all know the real reasons why the G11 failed...

1) there isn't a single M1913 Picatinny rail on it, anywhere, and

2) there are no Magpul accessories for it ;)
 
chanman said:
You weren't freakin' kidding!

g11open.jpg
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Ya, lol, that is some complicated sh!t. Although if you compare the firing mechanism of a C7 to a Marini Henry, the C7 is as
complicated to the Martini Henry rifleman as the G11 is to the C7/M16 rifleman.

It's just the relativity of firearm advancement.
 
nope the wierd g36 clone will not be my armys new rifle! we are going to be using the m-16 series still for the forceeable future, only changes i have seen thus far have been a few units that have been given piston powered m-16s, and they have been field testing in combat mainy different types of piston powered designs! my money would say they will most likely either use the hk type of piston driven system, built under liscense by the various suppliers to the military! and if not the hk, it would be either baretts system, or theone that colts been dinking with! colt would be another highly probable one, because colt has allways been using its leverage with lobbyists for years to get their ponys sold to the d.o.d.!!!! they are allmost as bad as springfield armory was when the m-16 first came out, and springfield wanted to have the m-14 stay on as the standard issue rifle(wich i would have had no problem with since its an m-14, and .308 kicks the hell out of .223)
 
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