US Military Replacing the M16? New XM8 Model

well i know my guns arent for mass killing... except for gophers...

but hk rifles are awesome, reliable, accurate,... and pretty...

These are military weapons we're talking about, afterall. ;)

If we were ever lucky enough to own something like the G11, it'd of course only be semi-automatic (and stupid expensive).

Still plenty good to slaughter a crap load of paper targets - if you can spare the coin! :D

Which is just a plastic AR-180. Which was a "cheap stamped-steel Armalite" using a piston.

And what was the AR-15 originally designed for? B-52 pilots doing the nuke mission over the arctic circle, this was to be their survival rifle: take vermin with a shot for food, defend from a handful of Soviets trying to capture them, and full auto to stop the polar bear from eating them! The early versions were especially light, pencil-thin barrels, and hollow buttstocks (they filled them with dense foam later due to noise on patrols). The Green Berets first saw some USAF types guarding planes with them, tried them in the jungles, and history followed.

Yup, the crazy history of AR15/M16. It sure went through some turbulent times before the design was well polished to the wonderful machines we have now!
 
These are military weapons we're talking about, afterall. ;)

If we were ever lucky enough to own something like the G11, it'd of course only be semi-automatic (and stupid expensive).

Won't happen, because you live in the only country in the world that banned a prototype by name, while still in the very early stages of development.
 
I thought we saw a glimpse of the next generation of firearms... back in the 1980s. G11, anyone? That was the only actual advanced projectile firearm ever created. Everything else so far is simply just a different variation of each other. Caseless ammunition is where it's at (until they develop energy-based weapons).

All the money they spent developing a new rifle that is essentially the same bloody thing as all of the assault rifles over the past 65 years (with marked improvements of course), it could have been put into research to make a more improved and cost-effective version of a caseless projectile weapon system. The only drawbacks to the G11 was mainly due to the level of technology and available material 20 years ago. There have been many advancements that they could very well have improved the G11 design and created an entire modern, next generation assault rifle.

I still think the G11 is the future of projectile firearms. Just needs some brilliant small arms engineer to realize it. That, or until they revolutionize warfare with alternate energy munitions.

Actually, the Gyrojet of the early '60's was the first revolutionary step in small arms ammuniton since the brass cased cartridge. In many ways the Gyrojet was well ahead of the G11.
 
Talk about a sarcasm saturated post. So you're obviously in the camp of "don't change anything, keep everything the same". Than I'm sure you're fine as a pig in sh*t over the many pointless (new & improved) designs that are under trial right now to replace an already well tested and combat proven rifle for one of a marginally improved but ultimately similar design.

I say it's a waste of time and money. If they really want a better service rifle they should put the funding into developing a rifle from a concept that is definitely better but only needs to be redesigned to accommodate modern technology/material (like I already said).

The G11 in itself is an older weapon (even though it is more advanced), but they can base their research and development off of it and create something that would meet all the needs of a service rifle. It even says on Wiki that the US is using the G11 technology as a template to replace their LMGs.

Your unnecessary exaggeration only shows your obvious bias towards H&K (or any of the "plastic gun" developers). And you specifically attack it's appearance. Seriously? Who cares. The uglier the better. It's a tool for mass killing, not your girlfriend. Doesn't have to be pretty.

Mein gott.

I`m just having some fun man. I wasn`t trying to attack anything you were saying. I was posting earlier about the OICW, which seems to me to be a great idea if they could ever get the weight under control (and weight is exactly what killed the project.... although the grenade launcher aspect lives on in the XM25 Individual Airburst Weapon System which, apparantly, is now being field tested in Afganistan). And your post about the G11 - which is totally a `bird of a feather`esthetically with the OICW - got me thinking.... G11 was, at least in part, about carrying way more rounds by making them much lighter. An obvious 2 + 2 ? A way of getting the rifle back together with the XM25?

I`m sure HK already thought through all this stuff back 20 and 30 years ago through the various development programs (ACR, OICW, etc.). There must be some reason - or many reasons - why G11 concept can`t link up with the airburst grenade launcher.

But no, I actually agree with you. The select fire assault rifle fed by 30 round magazines of regular old jacketed bullets... that has run its course. The adoption of new service rifles would seem to require something with substantially improved lethality, effective range or weight (and preferably all of them). Incremental gains in reliability, etc., it seems have not been good enough (hence all the development programs which have resulted in nothing).
 
I don't understand why people believe caseless munitions is such a substantial improvement to firearms. It's still the same velocities with the same projectiles with minimal alteration to tactical combat. The only advantage is it's lighter which means more rounds which means being able to carry more and longer patrols and lighter load outs. It still occupies the same mass as brass in space or a little less so logistics, on a strategic level, is marginally improved.

Lasers are suspect to diffraction and plasma is only containable in short range. Phasers, from what I understand, are entirely fictional and are just basically particle weapons. Besides questionable wounding efficacy, they all require large amounts of electricity and for some, highly exotic and/or radioactive material.

IMO, the next substantial step is mass accelerators. Gauss and Rail technology. No powder needed. All you have is the bullet of various types and sizes ranging from armour piercing SABOT, regular FMJ, slug, shot , and even grenades. Adjust the muzzle velocity by fiddling with the amount of electric current so you can snipe at full power or lower the current and lob a grenade. Switch to slugs to pop doors or lower the current for hostage or airplane situations to remove the possibility of over penetration. Since you're just carrying the bullet, the amount you can carry on a patrol is way more substantial than caseless munitions and a large amount can be transported on a strategic level. Definitely change infantry tactics as it allows any section member to perform any of our current designations (DMR, grenadier, rifleman, etc) and not be underhanded by situational circumstances (such as an IFV encounter with no anti-armour capability) which allows a more fluid combat environment. Of course, the big problem is still electricity, size, and ruggedness. Mass accelerators still require lots of energy and we currently have nothing of effective size for this. Not to mention that the electric currents of both ideas put large amounts of stress on the metals; fatiguing them easily. A future disadvantage is the proliferation of EMP like weapons to disable soldier systems especially with the whole "net-centric" warfare thinking taking the forefront. Also the velocity of the projectile being launched will be limited due to Newton's Third Law: Every action has an equal and opposite reaction. In other words, too fast and the recoil will launch the user. At least, it'll provide a better transition state than energy weapons since we already know what bullets do.

TL;DR: Science Fiction, Science, Fiction, Science Fiction.
 
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Using caseless or telescopic ammunition will substantially reduce the weight of the weapon - that's why LSAT is so attractive.

A c9/M249 with a 200 rd box is over 20 lb. The LSAT is about 10lb empty and the ammunition is about 35 to 45% lighter. Do the math, we are getting a 15 lb fully loaded LMG with ammunition.

This is a big deal - the whole point of USMC IAR is to reduce weight so the SAW gunners can keep up with the rest of the squad. If a LSAT type LMG can be fielded, we will get the same fire power as the C9/M249 while the gunners can keep pace with the rest of the section. This is very advantageous at the section, group and team levels.
 
I think that cased telescopic ammunition is more likely to see widespread adoption than caseless ammunition. It has most of the advantages of caseless, but the case is still available to act as a disposable heat sink, making the weapon less prone to cook-offs.
 
Using caseless or telescopic ammunition will substantially reduce the weight of the weapon - that's why LSAT is so attractive.

A c9/M249 with a 200 rd box is over 20 lb. The LSAT is about 10lb empty and the ammunition is about 35 to 45% lighter. Do the math, we are getting a 15 lb fully loaded LMG with ammunition.

This is a big deal - the whole point of USMC IAR is to reduce weight so the SAW gunners can keep up with the rest of the squad. If a LSAT type LMG can be fielded, we will get the same fire power as the C9/M249 while the gunners can keep pace with the rest of the section. This is very advantageous at the section, group and team levels.

Sorry, not convincing. I get your answer all the time without anyone reading what I'm actually saying. I understand where it's coming from. I've done the math when I first heard of caseless 5 years ago. It's expunged as the next great step, but the reality is, even you indicated, caseless is just an ergonomic and logistic benefit on a tactical level. Damage potential of the bullets are the same, tactics will be the same, no real innovation in infantry warfare. Just get to carry more delicate rounds. Before militaries switch out, they need something that can really give them the advantage.
 
CTA (CaseTelescoping Ammo)

Until the heat and durability issues of Cassless ammunition are sovled, the CTA route is the way to go.

GT is correct on the fact the LMG's fleets of NATO are in the most dire need of replacment, and realistically at that point your best looking to an entire new fleet with a NEW ammuntion designed from the ground up to the requirements of the soldier, not a system trying to shoehorn something into a platform not designed for it.

LSAT's with CTA are lighter and more manueverable, as well you can make it in a caliber ideal for the terrain and combat requirements of today.

I like a 7mm round CTA design of about 125gr -- which current FH/MB and other technology you can get a 10lb LMG (or less) that does not recoil at all.
 
Sorry, not convincing. I get your answer all the time without anyone reading what I'm actually saying. I understand where it's coming from. I've done the math when I first heard of caseless 5 years ago. It's expunged as the next great step, but the reality is, even you indicated, caseless is just an ergonomic and logistic benefit on a tactical level. Damage potential of the bullets are the same, tactics will be the same, no real innovation in infantry warfare. Just get to carry more delicate rounds. Before militaries switch out, they need something that can really give them the advantage.

Rail guns won't ever be fielded unless there's a massive leap forward in power generation, and I mean something to the equivalent of cold fusion for the masses. To drive a .30 caliber 168 grain ferrous slug down a 20in rail gun barrel at 850 m/s would theoretically require approximately 894,378.17 Amps or so. Complete unfeasible with anything in the foreseeable future. Only current railguns that are being looked at seriously are naval based ones and those aren't going to be rolled out until at least 2025. Only way I could see it becoming feesible is if the Mass Reduction technology from the game Mass Effect somehow becomes a reality.

Not even modern tanks can create the power necessary to drive a railgun bolt to equivalent velocities, much less small arms.

Plus we've got more practical issues of having all those intense magnetic fields appearing and disappearing all around your from you and your squad mates laying down fire...
 
Rail guns won't ever be fielded unless there's a massive leap forward in power generation, and I mean something to the equivalent of cold fusion for the masses. To drive a .30 caliber 168 grain ferrous slug down a 20in rail gun barrel at 850 m/s would theoretically require approximately 894,378.17 Amps or so. Complete unfeasible with anything in the foreseeable future. Only current railguns that are being looked at seriously are naval based ones and those aren't going to be rolled out until at least 2025. Only way I could see it becoming feesible is if the Mass Reduction technology from the game Mass Effect somehow becomes a reality.

Not even modern tanks can create the power necessary to drive a railgun bolt to equivalent velocities, much less small arms.

Plus we've got more practical issues of having all those intense magnetic fields appearing and disappearing all around your from you and your squad mates laying down fire...

I know. I already listed the disadvantages. I should learn to make smaller posts.
 
The case is one of the reasons rifles are so reliable. They are a disposable gas check. When ejected they remove much of the heat that would be absorbed by the chamber. They also remove the filth that would be deposited on the chamber walls and bolt face.

I wonder what the G11 chamber looked like after a few thousand rounds without cleaning. I wonder what those rotary seals would look like after troops tried to get them clean enough for inspection.

A from the ground up fleet of rifles and machine guns in the same CTA caliber would make sense but would the cost be worth it? Would NATO get on board? I guess the next few decades will tell.
 
The case is one of the reasons rifles are so reliable. They are a disposable gas check. When ejected they remove much of the heat that would be absorbed by the chamber. They also remove the filth that would be deposited on the chamber walls and bolt face.

I wonder what the G11 chamber looked like after a few thousand rounds without cleaning. I wonder what those rotary seals would look like after troops tried to get them clean enough for inspection.

A from the ground up fleet of rifles and machine guns in the same CTA caliber would make sense but would the cost be worth it? Would NATO get on board? I guess the next few decades will tell.

Ya, that's why conventional firearms will likely remain (plateaued) for some while. They're quite reliable and cost-effective.

The G11, after about 20 years, finally passed trial and is being used by German special forces but due to the higher cost of materials it was never chosen to replace their aging G3s.
 
Well not quite BS.

It was fielded with some West German (at the time West) troops and was doing quite well. HK had largely corrected the heat issues that they under-estimated in the original design, where the discarded brass casings were removing quite a bit of heat from the weapon. The case-less ammo was improved. The big issues were cost of the weapon and complexity (and expense) of the mechanism. I have not had a chance to shoot the G11 but have handled it an tore it down for examination. Brilliant weapon, points very natural and has good balance. The challenges in it's final stages were largely ammo related and were corrected.

It was a true quantum leap forward in weapon design.

Rich
 
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