Lake City 5.56 lot 7 m193

Thanks Henry! i will definetly look you up in the near future for some of that ammo. Do you know what lot or year of manufacture the ammo is?
Thanks for any info.:D
 
butane said:
What barrel i have makes no difference . But its an LMT 5.56 marked barrel. Im well aware i can shoot 223 in it, but that does not mean there is no difference in 223 and 5.56. If there is no difference in the ammo like you say then why are barrels marked differently?
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Actually, what type of barrel you have makes all the difference.

If you tried pumping a lot of 5.56x45mm of dodgy manufacture down a .223 Rem barrel with a SAAMI chamber, you might have some problems.

Considering it is Federal/Lake City ammo we're talking about, you probably won't have any problems, regardless of the chamber specs on your rifle.

In any case, I'm not interested in arguing with you. It looks like Henry has a great deal on his ammo and judging by the number of trades he's done with a 100% rating, he must be a good guy to deal with.:)

Enjoy blasting with your rifle.:cheers:

BTW, I'd be interested in hearing how that Federal ammo groups. I've always gotten great results with Federal ammunition in other calibers.

Note: if that ammo is NATO spec the brass will likely have thicker walls and the case capacity will be reduced. Keep that in mind if you plan on reloading the brass.
 
MapleSugar said:
It's the same thing.f:P:2:
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In a strict sense, .223 and 5.56 are not the same ammo...5.56 is loaded to a higher, military standard pressure, while .223 is loaded to a lower pressure...There are also very slight dimensional differences in the two cases...There is a lot of confusion over the two cartridges...I`ve seen many dealers advertise American Eagle, Red box, that is labeled 55gr .223, as being XM193 ammo...It is not military grade ammo....But by labeling it as XM193, military ammo, some dealers then charge a higher price...
I find American Eagle .223 ammo to be excellent stuff...Reliable and very accurate....Which is why I have about 8,000 rounds of the stuff.....
 
Airwolf said:
In a strict sense, .223 and 5.56 are not the same ammo...5.56 is loaded to a higher, military standard pressure, while .223 is loaded to a lower pressure...There are also very slight dimensional differences in the two cases...There is a lot of confusion over the two cartridges...I`ve seen many dealers advertise American Eagle, Red box, that is labeled 55gr .223, as being XM193 ammo...It is not military grade ammo....But by labeling it as XM193, military ammo, some dealers then charge a higher price...
I find American Eagle .223 ammo to be excellent stuff...Reliable and very accurate....Which is why I have about 8,000 rounds of the stuff.....
Click to expand...

How is the Federal .223 Rem or XM193 brass for reloading?
 
Henry Nierychlo said:
Sorry, my mistake. I'll change it to 5.56 XM193
Regards, Henry
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Hey Henry Federal American eagle .223 is NOT Lake City 5.56 lot 7 m193.

How about you post picture of the box stamp and a the marking son the a brass case of whatever you are selling.
 
OZZ said:
Hey Henry Federal American eagle .223 is NOT Lake City 5.56 lot 7 m193.

How about you post picture of the box stamp and a the marking son the a brass case of whatever you are selling.
Click to expand...

You're right! I must have forgotten to put my glasses on when I saw the OP's Title.
Sorry for messing up this thread.:redface:
Regards, Henry
 
beltfed said:
Bullsh!t
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O'Rly?

The .223 Remington is a sporting cartridge with the same external dimensions as the 5.56x45mm NATO military cartridge. It is loaded with a .224" diameter, jacketed bullet, with weights ranging from 40 up to 90 grains, though the most common load by far is 55 grains.

The primary differences between .223 Remington and 5.56 x 45 mm (NATO) are that .223 Remington is loaded to lower pressures and velocities compared to 5.56 NATO and the 5.56 NATO chamber has a longer leade. .223 Remington ammunition can be safely fired in a 5.56 NATO chambered gun, but the reverse can be an unsafe combination. The additional pressure created by 5.56 NATO ammo will frequently cause over-pressure problems such as flowing brass, difficult extraction, or popped/punctured primers, but in extreme cases, could damage or destroy the firearm. Chambers cut to .223 Remington specifications have a shorter leade (throat) area as well as slightly shorter headspace dimensions compared to 5.56 NATO "military" chamber specs, which contributes to the pressure issues.

While the 5.56 NATO and .223 Remington cartridges are very similar, they are not identical. Military cases are made with thicker brass in the web area than commercial cases, which reduces the powder capacity (an important consideration for handloaders), and the NATO specification allows a higher chamber pressure. Test barrels made for 5.56 NATO cartridge measure chamber pressure at the case mouth, as opposed to the SAAMI (Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturer’s Institute) location. This difference accounts for upwards of 20,000+ psi difference in pressure measurements. That means that advertised pressure of 58,000 psi for 5.56 NATO, is around 78,000 psi tested in .223 Remington test barrels. SAAMI .223 Rem Proof MAP is 78,500 psi so every 5.56 NATO round fired is basically a proof load, potentially very dangerous. The 5.56 NATO chambers, also known as mil-spec chambers, have a longer leade, which is the distance between the mouth of the cartridge and the point at which the bullet engages the rifling of the barrel. The .223 Remington chambering, known as the "SAAMI chamber", is allowed to have a shorter leade, and is only required to be proof tested to the lower SAAMI chamber pressure. To address these issues, various proprietary chambers exist, such as the Wylde chamber, used by Rock River Arms or the Armalite chamber, which are designed to handle both 5.56 NATO and .223 Remington equally well.

Using commercial .223 Remington cartridges in a 5.56 NATO chambered rifle should work reliably, but generally will not be as accurate as when fired from a .223 Remington chambered firearm due to the excessive leade. Using 5.56 NATO mil-spec cartridges (such as the M855) in a .223 Remington chambered firearm can lead to excessive wear and stress and even be unsafe, and the SAAMI recommends against the practice. Some commercial fireams marked as ".223 Remington" are in fact suited for 5.56 NATO, such as many commercial AR-15 variants and the Ruger Mini-14, but the manufacturer should always be consulted to verify that this is acceptable before attempting it. Signs of excessive pressure (such as flattening or puncturing of the primers) should also be looked for in the initial testing with 5.56 NATO ammunition.
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http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/MediaPages/ArticleDetail.aspx?mediaid=316
 
Blah, blah, blah.
You can quote truths from the internet all you like.

What I'd like to know is:
a) Have you ever sectioned different commercial .223 and military 5.56 cases to compare them for yourself?

b) How about handloading - do you do that?
 
beltfed said:
Blah, blah, blah.
You can quote truths from the internet all you like.

What I'd like to know is:
a) Have you ever sectioned different commercial .223 and military 5.56 cases to compare them for yourself?

b) How about handloading - do you do that?
Click to expand...

Have you? Have you tested and compared the brass from every maker imaginable in .223 Rem and NATO spec 5.56x45mm?

Have you sawn the cases in half and compared the thicknesses?

Have you filled them up with water and comparing the case volume that way?

Enlighten us with your wisdom, instead of childishly calling BS without giving an explanation.

You will note I said:

"...if that ammo is NATO spec the brass will likely have thicker walls and the case capacity will be reduced."
Click to expand...

Yes, I have reloaded a bit, It was under the tutelage of people that have been doing it longer than I have been alive. As a matter of fact, it was them who cautioned me to treat commercial .223 Rem and .308 Win brass, differently than 5.56x45mm and 7.62x51mm NATO.

But what would they know?:rolleyes:

As it is, I have not set up my gear to start reloading on my own yet.
 
MapleSugar said:
Have you? Have you tested and compared the brass from every maker imaginable in .223 Rem and NATO spec 5.56x45mm?
Click to expand...

For NATO 5.56 I have done IVI, Lake City, FNM, RG, WCC
For commercial .223; Winchester, Federal, Remington,
For other 5.56 surplus, 'rinco, SA surplus, Israeli, Ruag...so overall not everything - but a good mix of what's out there.

MapleSugar said:
Have you sawn the cases in half and compared the thicknesses?
Click to expand...

Above mentioned

MapleSugar said:
Have you filled them up with water and comparing the case volume that way?
Click to expand...

No, but there is enough information from people that have actually done it.
The reality is while weight and volume can change from case to case somewhat, this doesn't necessarily translate to changes in pressures from fired rounds.

MapleSugar said:
Enlighten us with your wisdom, instead of childishly calling BS without giving an explanation
Click to expand...

I see. I need to explain and provide proof to calling B/S on you spreading internet truths...got it:rolleyes:;)

MapleSugar said:
Yes, I have reloaded a bit, It was under the tutelage of people that have been doing it longer than I have been alive.
Click to expand...

So? I've loaded for a few myself - it doesn't mean I'm knowledgeable on certain subjects.

MapleSugar said:
As a matter of fact, it was them who cautioned me to treat commercial .223 Rem and .308 Win brass, differently than 5.56x45mm and 7.62x51mm NATO.

But what would they know?:rolleyes:
Click to expand...

First off, let's not lump .308/7.62x51mm with .223/5.56x45mm
The issues surrounding either cartridge combination does not transfer from one set to the next.
That's a valid question; what do they know? Have they been spreading the same info based on what they have been told or heard third hand?

MapleSugar said:
As it is, I have not set up my gear to start reloading on my own yet.
Click to expand...

Well, let me recommend taking everything you read on the 'net with a bit of trepidation. There is certainly no harm in gathering info on the 'net, but by all means confirm some of, or as much as you can for yourself.
 
beltfed said:
For NATO 5.56 I have done IVI, Lake City, FNM, RG, WCC
For commercial .223; Winchester, Federal, Remington,
For other 5.56 surplus, 'rinco, SA surplus, Israeli, Ruag...so overall not everything - but a good mix of what's out there.
Click to expand...

So? What were your findings? I would really like to know.

Were there variances in; case weights, capacities, or web thicknesses?

Did you fire them all through a chronometer, in their original factory loading and as personal reloads to compare the velocities?

Did you fire them all through a copper crusher test barrel and compare the chamber pressures?


beltfed said:
No, but there is enough information from people that have actually done it.
The reality is while weight and volume can change from case to case somewhat, this doesn't necessarily translate to changes in pressures from fired rounds.
Click to expand...

Where is this information? Where is your proof that it has been done? How can you accept that research and casually dismiss what I have offered from a credible source?


beltfed said:
I see. I need to explain and provide proof to calling B/S on you spreading internet truths...got it:rolleyes:;)
Click to expand...

Yes, any idiot can call BS. It takes someone with knowledge and experience to disprove a falsehood. If I'm wrong, I'll be the first to admit it.


beltfed said:
So? I've loaded for a few myself - it doesn't mean I'm knowledgeable on certain subjects.
Click to expand...

I never said I was an expert. You asked me if I've reloaded before. I have, but not much. I'm sure you've probably shot and reloaded more .223 Rem than the approximately 1000 rounds of it I have. I haven't dealt with that caliber that much.


beltfed said:
First off, let's not lump .308/7.62x51mm with .223/5.56x45mm
The issues surrounding either cartridge combination does not transfer from one set to the next.
Click to expand...

Maybe not, but I have been told to approach each differently for reloading than I would commercial brass. But then again, my friends would also inspect, sort and weigh individual cases if they were going for accuracy.


beltfed said:
That's a valid question; what do they know? Have they been spreading the same info based on what they have been told or heard third hand?
Click to expand...

They like to do a lot of testing at the range, or in their backyard. Since people come from miles around for help with their reloading questions (or to set up their rifles) I'll hazard a guess they've learned it through experience and from reading most of the information available since the 60's. Aside from loading really accurate rifle loads, the .45 ACP bullets they cast sure are good for making ragged holes in bullseye targets too.


beltfed said:
Well, let me recommend taking everything you read on the 'net with a bit of trepidation. There is certainly no harm in gathering info on the 'net, but by all means confirm some of, or as much as you can for yourself.
Click to expand...

Personally, since I don't know you from Jack S**t, I'll take the advice to be prudent from credible sources on the internet, rather than assume you speak the gospel. Especially since you offer no proof. For all I know you're just one range session away from a major kaboom.

I'll also retract my earlier statement that Federal American Eagle 55gr .223 Rem is the same as LC/XM193. I thought it was, but more research seems to indicate that is not the case.

In any case, I hope you all have fun shooting and don't experience any problems running any of that ammo through your rifles.
 
MapleSugar said:
So? What were your findings? I would really like to know.

Were there variances in; case weights, capacities, or web thicknesses?

Did you fire them all through a chronometer, in their original factory loading and as personal reloads to compare the velocities?.
Click to expand...

In sectioning various brands of .223 cases I found no discernable difference in web thickness. The differences found in case weights can be attributed to a number of attributes, one of those being the actual percentages of the make up of the individual elements that make up the brass alloy. This is no different than the make up of a lot of bullets, match type being no different - where a box of bullets can range in weight spread of up to .5 grains or more.
This may matter to some, and certainly those that strive for ulimate accuracy do to some extent engage in weight segrigation of cases and bullets. Is it necessary? Absolutely not.
I've gone on to mix and match some loads with different lots and brands of brass, and depending on the use can see no practical difference in performance due to "size"*. All was confirmed with chronograph and more importantly, on target.

I'm not a subsriber of directly translating water capacity/weight to the internal volume of the case. I don't think it is accurate enough, and quite frankly even if it was, I'm not totaly convinced it matters that much (on target).

* I say "size" because, while sectioned IVI and comercial Remington brass have proved to be virtually identical, their 'performance' and life are essentially opposites (at least in the use and reuse in ARs).

Short answer is there is no real difference in the size of .223 / 5.56x45mm cases. The reports of variations in water capacity and composition of the two could very well be accurate, I'm just not that convinced it matters - I'm only coming to this conclusion by seeing the results of thousands of rounds being put to targets. If one was to suggestion or was seeing signs of pressure in the use of one over the other, I'd say that the threshold of safety has been passed for both to begin with.


MapleSugar said:
Did you fire them all through a copper crusher test barrel and compare the chamber pressures?
Click to expand...

No, did 'Cheaper Than Dirt' do that in their article you quoted?


MapleSugar said:
Where is this information? Where is your proof that it has been done? How can you accept that research and casually dismiss what I have offered from a credible source?
Click to expand...

Firstly, I would not consider "Cheaper Than Dirt" a credible source of anything other than prices of ammo in the States (and then it is still subject to availability).

Secondly, while I treat much of what I read on the 'net with a bit of sceptacisim, there are a number of online resources that have knowledgeable info.; 6br forum is one of those.

http://www.6mmbr.com/223Rem.html
 
beltfed said:
In sectioning various brands of .223 cases I found no discernable difference in web thickness. The differences found in case weights can be attributed to a number of attributes, one of those being the actual percentages of the make up of the individual elements that make up the brass alloy. This is no different than the make up of a lot of bullets, match type being no different - where a box of bullets can range in weight spread of up to .5 grains or more.
This may matter to some, and certainly those that strive for ulimate accuracy do to some extent engage in weight segrigation of cases and bullets. Is it necessary? Absolutely not.
I've gone on to mix and match some loads with different lots and brands of brass, and depending on the use can see no practical difference in performance due to "size"*. All was confirmed with chronograph and more importantly, on target.

I'm not a subsriber of directly translating water capacity/weight to the internal volume of the case. I don't think it is accurate enough, and quite frankly even if it was, I'm not totaly convinced it matters that much (on target).

* I say "size" because, while sectioned IVI and comercial Remington brass have proved to be virtually identical, their 'performance' and life are essentially opposites (at least in the use and reuse in ARs).

Short answer is there is no real difference in the size of .223 / 5.56x45mm cases. The reports of variations in water capacity and composition of the two could very well be accurate, I'm just not that convinced it matters - I'm only coming to this conclusion by seeing the results of thousands of rounds being put to targets. If one was to suggestion or was seeing signs of pressure in the use of one over the other, I'd say that the threshold of safety has been passed for both to begin with.




No, did 'Cheaper Than Dirt' do that in their article you quoted?




Firstly, I would not consider "Cheaper Than Dirt" a credible source of anything other than prices of ammo in the States (and then it is still subject to availability).

Secondly, while I treat much of what I read on the 'net with a bit of sceptacisim, there are a number of online resources that have knowledgeable info.; 6br forum is one of those.

http://www.6mmbr.com/223Rem.html
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Thanks for the info!

BTW, from your own reference source. It corroborates what I've already mentioned and quoted from Cheaper Than Dirt:

.223 Remington vs. 5.56x45--Chambering and Throat Considerations

Is the .223 Remington the same as the 5.56x45? The answer is yes and no. There ARE differences between the .223 Remington as shot in civilian rifles and the 5.56x45 in military use. While the external cartridge dimensions are essentially the same, the .223 Remington is built to SAAMI specs, rated to 50,000 CUP max pressure, and normally has a shorter throat. The 5.56x45 is built to NATO specs, rated to 60,000 CUP max pressure, and has a longer throat, optimized to shoot long bullets. That said, there are various .223 Remington match chambers, including the Wylde chamber, that feature longer throats. Military 5.56x45 brass often, but not always, has thicker internal construction, and slightly less capacity than commercial .223 Rem brass.

Should you be worried about shooting 5.56x45 milspec ammo in a .223 Remington? The answer really depends on your chamber. 5.56 x45 ammo is intended for chambers with longer throats. If you shoot hot 5.56x45 ammo in short-throated SAAMI-spec chambers you can encounter pressure issues. The new long-throated 'Wylde' chamber allows safe use of military ammo. Wylde chambers are quite common in Rock River guns. Other manufacturers, such as Fulton Armory, offer modified "match chambers" with extended throats that allow safe use of 5.56x45 ammo in .223 Remington rifles. For a complete discussion of the .223 Rem vs. 5.56x45 question, read this Tech Notice from Winchester, and this GunZone Commentary by Dean Speir. Without belaboring the point, we'll repeat the official SAAMI position: "Chambers for military rifles have a different throat configuration than chambers for sporting firearms which, together with the full metal jacket of the military projectile, may account for the higher pressures which result when military ammunition is fired in a sporting chamber. SAAMI recommends that a firearm be fired only with the cartridge for which it is specifically chambered by the manufacturer."
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http://www.6mmbr.com/223rem.html
 
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