RA Release XCR-M Will Be @ Shot Show 2011

[misanthropist]

The reason I think it is not analogous to a bike is this: those bikes MUST be disassembled.

Virtually every assault rifle design that has been fielded by any modern military force has been designed with a bare minimum of bolts...they are mostly pinned, pressed or welded.

The XCR is bolted together and they have continual problems with those bolts working loose.

I would call that a pretty clear indication of a problem.

A lot of XCR fans say things like, "what about the bolts holding my truck's differential together?"

Well, I used to work in a driveline shop. Most of the diffs I pulled apart had ten or twelve 3/8" bolts...holding the cover on. You could lose literally all of those bolts and the gears would still work, they would just wear from lack of lubrication.

How many bolts, and of what size, keep the XCR's barrel in place?

And is a rifle barrel a part which will be best retained by a system which puts a large amount of direct pressure on a single spot on the outside of the barrel? Or are there potentially serious downsides to this approach?

There are good reasons to question the design IMO. Bolts are not inherently lousy methods of connecting pieces of metal, but the fewer you have in a rifle, the better. How much fuss is made about properly staking the few bolts in the AR? That is not because people just like swinging hammers at their guns...it is because guns are not kind to bolts.

There is no way around most of the bolts on cars and trucks and motorcycles. But then a lot of critical bolts get staked, spot welded, or safety wired if serious performance is a requirement.

 

[Armedsask]

I've never liked the single bolt holding the barrel in.

 

[OZZ]

Perhaps the corporate budget wont allow for a booth. Trade show booths can be very pricey. Somehow I dont think any government contracts are gonna be signed over in the hottub at the shady 8ball motel....

You think he got the room with the vibrating bed?

Is it that bad at Robarms?

 

[Throttle_monkey1]

The reason I think it is not analogous to a bike is this: those bikes MUST be disassembled.

Virtually every assault rifle design that has been fielded by any modern military force has been designed with a bare minimum of bolts...they are mostly pinned, pressed or welded.

The XCR is bolted together and they have continual problems with those bolts working loose.

I would call that a pretty clear indication of a problem.

A lot of XCR fans say things like, "what about the bolts holding my truck's differential together?"

Well, I used to work in a driveline shop. Most of the diffs I pulled apart had ten or twelve 3/8" bolts...holding the cover on. You could lose literally all of those bolts and the gears would still work, they would just wear from lack of lubrication.

How many bolts, and of what size, keep the XCR's barrel in place?

And is a rifle barrel a part which will be best retained by a system which puts a large amount of direct pressure on a single spot on the outside of the barrel? Or are there potentially serious downsides to this approach?

There are good reasons to question the design IMO. Bolts are not inherently lousy methods of connecting pieces of metal, but the fewer you have in a rifle, the better. How much fuss is made about properly staking the few bolts in the AR? That is not because people just like swinging hammers at their guns...it is because guns are not kind to bolts.

There is no way around most of the bolts on cars and trucks and motorcycles. But then a lot of critical bolts get staked, spot welded, or safety wired if serious performance is a requirement.

Rollpins, which are common in guns are lousy as well. I had one walk right out of my cz858. Do I blame the design as well? No. It's the nature of all things mechanical. The biggest xcr gripe seems to be with with the ejector bolts coming loose, mine never moved, but i would check them periodically. I have not heard about too many barrels falling off.

Again all rifles are meant to be disassembled to some level for proper maintenance. If bolts are good enough for an offroad motorcycle they're good enough for a gun.

 

[Camp Cook]

The reason I think it is not analogous to a bike is this: those bikes MUST be disassembled.

Virtually every assault rifle design that has been fielded by any modern military force has been designed with a bare minimum of bolts...they are mostly pinned, pressed or welded.

The XCR is bolted together and they have continual problems with those bolts working loose.

I would call that a pretty clear indication of a problem.

A lot of XCR fans say things like, "what about the bolts holding my truck's differential together?"

Well, I used to work in a driveline shop. Most of the diffs I pulled apart had ten or twelve 3/8" bolts...holding the cover on. You could lose literally all of those bolts and the gears would still work, they would just wear from lack of lubrication.

How many bolts, and of what size, keep the XCR's barrel in place?

And is a rifle barrel a part which will be best retained by a system which puts a large amount of direct pressure on a single spot on the outside of the barrel? Or are there potentially serious downsides to this approach?

There are good reasons to question the design IMO. Bolts are not inherently lousy methods of connecting pieces of metal, but the fewer you have in a rifle, the better. How much fuss is made about properly staking the few bolts in the AR? That is not because people just like swinging hammers at their guns...it is because guns are not kind to bolts.

There is no way around most of the bolts on cars and trucks and motorcycles. But then a lot of critical bolts get staked, spot welded, or safety wired if serious performance is a requirement.

For 27 years I worked at and then owned BC's second largest specialty heavy duty drivetrain (trans/diff) repair shop I actually know about bolts and loctite not just spewing about a couple months experiences...

 

[CanuckWR]

Better call Harley and tell them to get their act together too. I'm tired of paying extra for them to check if the motor is still secure every time it gets serviced... I know it says to check said bolts in the owners manual but I am sure that is BS as a battle tested design should never fail or need me the operator to pay any attention to it at all... BS I say!

 

[NavyCuda]

For 27 years I worked at and then owned BC's second largest specialty heavy duty drivetrain (trans/diff) repair shop I actually know about bolts and loctite not just spewing about a couple months experiences...

Coastline?

I was at Pacific Inland Powertrain for a while. Now, where I work, we send any drive train related component to Truck Specialists.

 

[jjohnwm]

....a battle tested design should never fail or need me the operator to pay any attention to it at all...

Am I the only one who thinks that this is an unrealistic attitude? It's a mechanical device consisting of moving parts...I fully expect to check it periodically, for my own peace of mind. I admit that I would get a bit pissed off if I discovered loose connectors every time that I checked. Is this a common problem, or an isolated incident here and there with these guns?

 

[Camp Cook]

Coastline?

I was at Pacific Inland Powertrain for a while. Now, where I work, we send any drive train related component to Truck Specialists.

I hired/trained Paul into the world of drivetrain partied a lot with him over the years as well he sold out to Rob H a couple years ago but that went south and yes I hired and trained Rob as well (his brother was my chiroprator) Gary has now bought Paul out...

Truck Specialties... all I can say is oh my do we need to talk I can help them get better pricing and better service...

 

[NavyCuda]

I hired/trained Paul into the world of drivetrain partied a lot with him over the years as well he sold out to Rob H a couple years ago but that went south and yes I hired and trained Rob as well (his brother was my chiroprator) Gary has now bought Paul out...

Truck Specialties... all I can say is oh my do we need to talk I can help them get better pricing and better service...

I worked for Paul about 4 or 5 years ago, while Al was still there. Gary(the same guy?) Was building transmissions for Paul. Gary quit shortly before I did. Paul's a pretty good guy, we still got along pretty good after I quit but I never hung out with him socially.

Don't think I know Rob H, at least not by name alone.

Truck Specialties.. I think if you're lucky enough to get into his shop, the last thing you're concerned about is how much it's going to cost and when it might get done... I'm not sure there is anyone that comes close to Dennis's experience and knowledge...

I deal with his son, Sean, more than Dennis though, as I've had a number of things cut out on their water jet.

Anyways back on subject... RFB > XCR-M

 

[misanthropist]

Rollpins, which are common in guns are lousy as well. I had one walk right out of my cz858. Do I blame the design as well? No. It's the nature of all things mechanical. The biggest xcr gripe seems to be with with the ejector bolts coming loose, mine never moved, but i would check them periodically. I have not heard about too many barrels falling off.

Again all rifles are meant to be disassembled to some level for proper maintenance. If bolts are good enough for an offroad motorcycle they're good enough for a gun.

I agree, roll pins should be avoided in favour of taper pins when possible.

If bolts were good enough, they would be used in all major designs. They are generally avoided and if that is not an indication of a problem with their use, I'm not sure what would be.

 

[NeitArms]

Looks like the NSSF is less than happy about the Robarm suite..

Reminder that ‘suitcasing’ and ‘outboarding’ are not tolerated at SHOT Show
January 14, 2011 By Chris Dolnack View Comments

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In advance of the SHOT Show, we’d again like to remind any potential rule breakers of the show’s suitcasing and outboarding policy.

We’ve already heard of one non-exhibiting company that was planning to “outboard” the show by setting up a suite in a nearby hotel and luring exhibitors off the show floor to look at its products.

Plain and simple, this type of act is stealing from the show. SHOT Show exhibitors have invested a lot of money and other resources to exhibit at the show, and acts like this deprive NSSF (as the show’s owner) of income we use to support our many programs and initiatives. Please keep in mind, this is not just a SHOT Show policy; it is an industry standard recognized by the International Association of Exhibitions and Events (IAEE).

As a reminder, please see the examples below of suitcasing and outboarding. We also encourage everyone to review the show’s official suitcasing and outboarding policy, which is available on the SHOT Show website. We will have a response team at this year’s show looking for this type of activity, and we encourage anyone who sees a violation of our policy to contact the show office.

Suitcasing refers to those non-exhibiting companies or persons who go to shows as an attendee but “work the aisles” from their suitcase (briefcase) and solicit business in the aisles or lobby area.

An example of this occurred last year when a well-known cutlery maker sent out alerts to potential customers that while they will not be exhibiting this year they will have personnel walking the show floor and will be offering a SHOT Show Special. To protect our exhibitors and their investment, we revoked that company’s SHOT Show credentials and escorted them from the show floor.

Outboarding refers to non-exhibiting companies that set up exhibits at off-site locations — hotel hospitality suites or restaurants — and encourage show attendees to leave the show floor and spend time with them.

An example of this occurred last year when rather than exhibit at the 2010 SHOT Show, a well-known firearms maker set up a hospitality room in a hotel off the show floor and invited retailers to leave the show floor and visit their suite. To protect our exhibitors, the hotel agreed to shut down the suite, as provided for in its contract with the SHOT Show. The manufacturer attempted to relocate to yet another hotel, which refused to allow the manufacturer to outboard the show.

 

[samuel]

robarms will need a big suitcase than ?

 

[Camp Cook]

Maybe the -M isn't going to be released for a public viewing after all...

 

[Throttle_monkey1]

I agree, roll pins should be avoided in favour of taper pins when possible.

If bolts were good enough, they would be used in all major designs. They are generally avoided and if that is not an indication of a problem with their use, I'm not sure what would be.

Bolts and pins are different. Bolts are used to join two or pieces in a semi permanent fashion. They use force exerted by the bolts stretching elastically (but not past their yield strength).

A capture pin is perfect for keeping an upper and lower together, bolt not so much. An ejector shouldn't have a rollpin holding it in place.

Most military guns are mass produced and tapered pin setups are way cheaper than bolts. I trust bolts 100% as long as proper torque and loctite is used.

Some of the stuff here at work has large bolts torqued to insane levels. Never a problem unless improper torque was used or loctite was omitted when spec'd.

The anti-xcr argument because of bolts is a lame duck point.

 

[NavyCuda]

Bolts and pins are different. Bolts are used to join two or pieces in a semi permanent fashion. They use force exerted by the bolts stretching elastically (but not past their yield strength).

A capture pin is perfect for keeping an upper and lower together, bolt not so much. An ejector shouldn't have a rollpin holding it in place.

Most military guns are mass produced and tapered pin setups are way cheaper than bolts. I trust bolts 100% as long as proper torque and loctite is used.

Some of the stuff here at work has large bolts torqued to insane levels. Never a problem unless improper torque was used or loctite was omitted when spec'd.

The anti-xcr argument because of bolts is a lame duck point.

On our reclaimer, it uses m30x2x160ish torqued to around 1600ft.lbs, we use neverseez and the specified lock washer. Bolts are "clamping" devices, the friction between the two flanges due to being clamped is all that prevents movement. Bolts are surprisingly easy to sheer off if not correctly torqued.

Roll pins have the advantage in that even if they start walking out you can put them back in with a rock, but any bolt will require you to have the appropriate tool to make the repair out in the field. There is a reason that for the last century the big firms have been moving towards snap together parts and detent retained pins.

RA tries to make their rifle sound like the battle rifle to end all battle rifles, but it has design flaws that puts it behind other "inferior" designs. Is the XCR a great sporting rifle? Sure. The new military rifle for the next 50 years? Not a chance.

 

[hbean]

RA tries to make their rifle sound like the battle rifle to end all battle rifles.

Can't blame a guy for believing his own design, if people don't believe in their own design why would they even bother?

I don't think Eugene Stone set out think he is to create just another rifle when he was working on the AR15.

 

[CanuckWR]

Am I the only one who thinks that this is an unrealistic attitude? It's a mechanical device consisting of moving parts...I fully expect to check it periodically, for my own peace of mind. I admit that I would get a bit pissed off if I discovered loose connectors every time that I checked. Is this a common problem, or an isolated incident here and there with these guns?

Exactly my point! Sorry for the heavy use of sarcasm.

This whole battle tested idea for an unrestricted gopher blaster seems a little unnecessary to me. I have yet to have a gopher return fire...

 

[misanthropist]

Bolts and pins are different. Bolts are used to join two or pieces in a semi permanent fashion. They use force exerted by the bolts stretching elastically (but not past their yield strength).

A capture pin is perfect for keeping an upper and lower together, bolt not so much. An ejector shouldn't have a rollpin holding it in place.

Most military guns are mass produced and tapered pin setups are way cheaper than bolts. I trust bolts 100% as long as proper torque and loctite is used.

Some of the stuff here at work has large bolts torqued to insane levels. Never a problem unless improper torque was used or loctite was omitted when spec'd.

The anti-xcr argument because of bolts is a lame duck point.

Well, about all I can say to that is that whether you trust bolts or not, it's no secret that XCRs have had consistent problems shaking theirs loose in high-round-count environments.

So they may be good enough for you, but I don't think they are necessarily good enough for everyone, and I can't see any reason why fans of the XCR should have the right to tell anyone else what is "good enough" for them.

 

[fuzzynuts54]

Once locktite'd they can't rattle loose. If your really worried about it use the red permanent. While it's not really permanent it's damn close and it'll never come out alone under an infinite round count. You'll have to heat the screws enough to melt the glue before you can remove them. The rod caps on John forces 3 second/ 4000hp car are held on by 2 nuts each. I can not fathom a more abusive environment. I suppose they could machine interlocking caps that use taper pins to secure them but they haven't. Proper torque secures things indefinatley, lock tite is just a redundant compound or a back up plan. I'm still amazed at the trashing because of loose screws. Bolts and screws hold the world together. Their good enough to hold a gas turbine engine together, connect power to the rotors, hold the rotors on and fasten the linkage on a 20million dollar apache hellicopter but not a rifle? Sounds like user error. But it, inspect it, maintain it and it won't be a problem. My guess is the guys having problems are the same people that call for roadside service to change a tire.