:confused: Broke my LMT - MRP Locking Bolt!!!

Do you think that the bolts in a Ford truck are made by Ford? The bolts in a 747 made by Boeing?

NEA -- want save yourself vast sums in potential lawsuits by paying an engineer dozens of hours to design and FEA test fasteners? I'll happily provide qualified staff at contract rates.


Seriously...

I think I'm going to start a company. Buy fasteners from Fastenal for .50 and sell them to suckers for $50 a pair. Engineered to 'spec'.

I wonder if they'll drop ship for me.
 
Do you think that the bolts in a Ford truck are made by Ford? The bolts in a 747 made by Boeing?


Seriously?

I have no ####ing clue dude, all I'm doing is taking the advice from LMT.

I don't care what the OP does it's his 1700 dollar upper, not mine.

BTW were talking firearms not vehicles, High pressure and high heat may call for a special bolt, I dunno. I'm just guna go by what LMT told me, call me crazy I guess....
 
High heat and high pressure, but he can snap the $25 screw right in half with a simple hand tool at room temperature?

Ok.
 
Biggest mistake you could make is mis reading the torque value. (Material is probably closer to 1960 series or F835 (Ala SHCS).

140 IN-Lbs is just under 12 FT-lbs. That is NOT a lot of torque as you can place up to 700+ in-Lbs into a cheap 1/4" allen key before breaking it.


Another possibility is that they may be torque limiting bolts. Designed to shear prior to overtorquing (Thereby preventing thread stripping).
 
I have no f**king clue dude, all I'm doing is taking the advice from LMT.

I don't care what the OP does it's his 1700 dollar upper, not mine.

BTW were talking firearms not vehicles, High pressure and high heat may call for a special bolt, I dunno. I'm just guna go by what LMT told me, call me crazy I guess....

You're not so crazy :)

Contrary to the "opinion" of others the bolts in question are made by LMT and made "in house". They are precision ground from blanks... to a set tolerance in relation to the cross slot on the MRP barrel extensions. They are also ground to a pre-determined spec that allows the screws to break before overtightening occurs and receiver damage results.

They cost a lot more than $0.50 cents to produce (though the internet experts here will believe whatever they want to) and the Canadian Retail of $17.50 each (not $50) reflects our US cost plus the various costs to export and import them to Canada. Like everything gun related, they require export permits, brokerage clearances, etc. I believe they're something like $14 US but that's not the point.

The point is that they are an important part of the MRP system with tolerances and specifications that you will NOT find walking into any fastener outlet. If you want to replace them with a different part then that's your choice but you do so at your own risk and you VOID any warranty that would have been offered by the manufacturer.

For the original poster... if you contact our offices and explain your situation we can usually pull a bolt from somewhere and get you up and running without a 4 to 8 week delay. I know we are currently sold out of retail inventory but that doesn't mean we don't have something in our armourer's bins. Call the office and talk to Scott.

Mark
 
Actually, we were just talking about this here. Forget engineering. Financially alone, at 50c a screw he could afford a bag of 100 for that price.

Change out screws every 100-200 rounds and STILL be ahead money.
 
High heat and high pressure, but he can snap the $25 screw right in half with a simple hand tool at room temperature?

Ok.

Again I was told by LMT that these bolts shear at a precise torque spec first, before they would crush or crack the upper. This makes sense because you'd have a hell of alot of people calling about cracked uppers rather then sheared bolts.
 
Actually, we were just talking about this here. Forget engineering. Financially alone, at 50c a screw he could afford a bag of 100 for that price.

Change out screws every 100-200 rounds and STILL be ahead money.

Maby you should consult to LMT since you know so much about the engineering of their products.

Fact of the matter is all the nay sayers advice is the wrong advice, and if the OP used different bolts, overtightened them again and cracked his receiver he would be SOL. (Assuming you guys wouldn't pony up the doe to replace his upper based on your guys "free" advice)
 
Hold on... I have to stop laughing for a moment... ok... taking a deep breath.

1) LMT does NOT manufacture socket head cap screws. They don't even have a thread roller that I am aware of.

I just thought I'd highlight this for you. Perhaps you should double check your info source first...


V V V V V

Contrary to the "opinion" of others the bolts in question are made by LMT and made "in house". They are precision ground from blanks... to a set tolerance in relation to the cross slot on the MRP barrel extensions. They are also ground to a pre-determined spec that allows the screws to break before overtightening occurs and receiver damage results.
 
Actually, we were just talking about this here. Forget engineering. Financially alone, at 50c a screw he could afford a bag of 100 for that price.

Change out screws every 100-200 rounds and STILL be ahead money.

Right up to the point where "he" over-tightens the .50 cent bolt... the bolt doesn't shear... and instead of replacing a $17.50 bolt the upper receiver cracks, resulting in a replacement cost of $1,000 plus dollars.

Exactly how many LMT MRP bolts could you buy for that $1,000 plus dollar upper that gets ruined?

Something to consider when making your decision?

I know it's just the manufacturer's explicit instructions to replace those bolts with the same part, but you guys are the experts...

Mark
 
First, these are not technically "bolts" these are socket head cap screws.
Second, fastener companies specialize in manufacture of bolts and screws etc. Gun companies specialize in manufacture of guns not fastners. I would bet the knowledge machinery metallurgy and heat treat etc etc favors the faster company producing the best product over the gun company for in house manufacture of a socket head cap screw.
Third, the gun company needs two fasteners per gun. LMT manufactures what? a thousand or so guns per year. That is a 2000 SHCS order so I doubt it is big enough to warrant interest to do a special order or special SHCS run from any fastener company.
Fourth, engineers look in a book to find a fastener that does the job for them and specifies such a fastener. They don't reinvent the wheel.
Ask yourself this, if this fastener is so special, why are there so many available replacement fasteners that are identical, if not superior to the one that is in your LMT now?
 
How many more receivers are you going to crack with a bolt 100x stronger at 140 in/lbs, vs a bolt 50x stronger at 140 in/lbs?

Are you saying you will crack more receivers with other spec fasteners torqued at 140 in/lbs than you will with custom shear bolts torqued to the exact same rating?
 
maybe "he" should use the money saved on SHCS to buy a torque wrench so "he" can torque that fastener properly at 140 inch-lbs and not crack that $1000 upper.
 
First, these are not technically "bolts" these are socket head cap screws.
Second, fastener companies specialize in manufacture of bolts and screws etc. Gun companies specialize in manufacture of guns not fastners. I would bet the knowledge machinery metallurgy and heat treat etc etc favors the faster company producing the best product over the gun company for in house manufacture of a socket head cap screw.
Third, the gun company needs two fasteners per gun. LMT manufactures what? a thousand or so guns per year. That is a 2000 SHCS order so I doubt it is big enough to warrant interest to do a special order or special SHCS run from any fastener company.
Fourth, engineers look in a book to find a fastener that does the job for them and specifies such a fastener. They don't reinvent the wheel.
Ask yourself this, if this fastener is so special, why are there so many available replacement fasteners that are identical, if not superior to the one that is in your LMT now?

How many more receivers are you going to crack with a bolt 100x stronger at 140 in/lbs, vs a bolt 50x stronger at 140 in/lbs?

Are you saying you will crack more receivers with other spec fasteners torqued at 140 in/lbs than you will with custom shear bolts torqued to the exact same rating?

Correction, maby both of you should consult to LMT. Clearly your knowledge in the design and engineering of their uppers is vastly superior to that of their own. :rolleyes:

BTW t1ctacal (Claven2?) you should man up and continue the discussion in your original cgn name, not use another account to do so.... How convenient that your first post is in this particular thread. :rolleyes:
 
Correction maby both of you should consult to LMT. Clearly your knowledge in the design and engineering of their uppers is vastly superior to that of their own. :rolleyes:

BTW t1ctacal you should man up and continue the discussion in your original name, not create another account to do so.... How convenient that your first post is in this particular thread. :rolleyes:

t1ctacal is the individual I was laughing with earlier. He designs oil rigs in Houston, Texas. Dad might have gotten around in earlier years. But I'm pretty sure Claven2 isn't one of my brothers.

Just another case where you make weird guesses without having much of a clue.


But when it comes to FEA and mechanical engineering t1ctacal has mech. design expertise and experience ranging from Canada to the US, Germany the Ukraine and Poland. Oh. And South Africa and Angola.

My experience is limited to telecom plastics and electronics and metal fabrication for towers in Canada.

Of course, neither of us are able to crush a Swiss Arms receiver with his bare hands like some folks :rolleyes:
 
First, these are not technically "bolts" these are socket head cap screws.
Not quite being a Torx Socket, but close enough.

Second, fastener companies specialize in manufacture of bolts and screws etc. Gun companies specialize in manufacture of guns not fastners. I would bet the knowledge machinery metallurgy and heat treat etc etc favors the faster company producing the best product over the gun company for in house manufacture of a socket head cap screw.
Um. Actually Fastener companies specialize in MASS PRODUCTION of the more common types of fasteners. Not necessarily the best quality but the good enough to satisfy a specific requirement (aka Gr. 8 to the cheapest manufacturer, irregarless of thread forming techniques).
An engineering company/design firm (such as those engineering a firearm design) would have a far better understanding of what tolerances and precision is required for their designs. Many designs have specific applications (such as a limited torque bolt), specific heat treatment and hardness requirements which cannot be easily or cheaply done by the Fastener Companies. Fanstenal, Spaenaur, Brofasco, etc..., all manufacter and sell hardware available in the multi-million pieces per year usage. If a Company needs a specific bolt due to some single characteristic, it may be more cost effective to have a custom bolt made, than a redesign to accept a "standard" bolt.

Third, the gun company needs two fasteners per gun. LMT manufactures what? a thousand or so guns per year. That is a 2000 SHCS order so I doubt it is big enough to warrant interest to do a special order or special SHCS run from any fastener company.
Definitely.

Fourth, engineers look in a book to find a fastener that does the job for them and specifies such a fastener. They don't reinvent the wheel.
Ask yourself this, if this fastener is so special, why are there so many available replacement fasteners that are identical, if not superior to the one that is in your LMT now?
Actually they do depending on the application. I do however bet that the original bolts were indeed "plain-jane" from a fastener company.

After the first or second prototype that was stripped during the numerous build up and tear down of the design history, I bet they decided on a torque value and subsequently a torque-limited torx cap screw.
Also it becomes a service/warranty issue. If the user doesn't follow torquing instructions or their torque wrench is out, the screw breaks before really expensive damage occurs. If the user then replaces the bolt with a cheap version. He cannot claim warranty as it is not OEM parts he used.

It may increase the end price by $20-30, but saves the company several man hours of labour (Ever use heli-coils?) and god knows how much paperwork/shipping for repairing/replacing MRP's due to "overtorquing".
 
^ A good retort.

Notably devoid of posts entirely constructed of emoticons.

Funny, though we've already crossed this bridge more then a few times. LMT's word wasen't enough, so Questar confirmed the mystery of these fasteners.

It's you guys that assumed the roles of "know it alls" even after the truth was confirmed. Further argument of the facts just seemed foolish IMO.

After a while all I guy can do is use emoticons

:bangHead:
 
I just thought I'd highlight this for you. Perhaps you should double check your info source first...


V V V V V

I'm not going to argue with the importer about LMT fasteners being special purpose, but I am right - LMT does not have a thread roller. Few businesses do unless they manufacture huge quantities of fasteners.

What the importer said was:
Contrary to the "opinion" of others the bolts in question are made by LMT and made "in house". They are precision ground from blanks... to a set tolerance in relation to the cross slot on the MRP barrel extensions. They are also ground to a pre-determined spec that allows the screws to break before overtightening occurs and receiver damage results.

For starters, fastener threads are not ground. Only the shanks and/or head would be. The hex inlet is usually formed with a press, presumably the LMT ones are as well.

If LMT is making these in-house, they are likely precision grinding the shafta and then cutting the threads on a CNC lathe, which could account for the high price per unit.

From what I have seen from other manufacturers, LMT's products do not seem TYPICAL for gun design. Normally standard fasteners are used to control the cost and achieve a price point.

If the gun were mine, I would just use a tandard fastener or spin one off in the lathe. But then, I have a decent torque wrench and could install it without damaging the receiver ;)

Your mileage may vary.
 
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