RFB initial thoughts, Range report ***JANUARY 31st ammo test at bottom of OP***

[Mystic Precision]

Based on loading for M305's, consider 155gr Amax, Benchmark, BR2 primers and load to 2600 to 2700fps.

This might help keep the moving parts from bashing around too much.

If the tuning is geared towards NATO ammo, this combo should give positive results.

Love to do some tuning with a bulpup a that would be very different.

Saw a RFB shoot locally and its groups were certainly in the 2 to 3 MOA range at 100yds. Didn't get any info on ammo but a scope was used.

Jerry

 

[LloydM]

I thought there might be some load similarities between the M14 and the RFB, but now I don't think so... my M14 with JAE stock is a 1MOA all day long rifle with 168gr Amax, BR2 primers, 42.5gr IMR 4895, 2.800 OAL and new cheap Remington brass where you can actually see the variartion in neck thickness.

Swap the cheap Remingron brass for Lapua brass, and that is basically what I tried in the RFB today with much poorer accuracy. Granted, I did use Fed primers instead of CCI, but they are both match grade primers and I don't think there would be much difference between the two. Mystic - Is there a noticeable difference between BR2 and Federal Match primers in the M14?

Load development was a breeze for the Tavor...

 

[Epoxy7]

Based on loading for M305's, consider 155gr Amax, Benchmark, BR2 primers and load to 2600 to 2700fps.

This might help keep the moving parts from bashing around too much.

If the tuning is geared towards NATO ammo, this combo should give positive results.

Love to do some tuning with a bulpup a that would be very different.

Saw a RFB shoot locally and its groups were certainly in the 2 to 3 MOA range at 100yds. Didn't get any info on ammo but a scope was used.

Jerry

Actually that's the next direction we have been discussing!!! Just got off the phone with Fireball and we were talking about loading 155 Palma style bullets. We wish you were in this area to help out with tuning this bulpup!! Could definitely use the expertise.

Noticed something else today. I bought one of the front rails for my RFB. When I took my RFB apart the back pin has always been a royal pain to get out and put back in. Well I noticed that when all the pins were out that there is some give with the front two pins. The barrel can actually move slightly back and forth. I installed the front rail (like it by the way and Fireball's had it installed last shoot). When you push back on the barrel with only the first two pins (front handguard assembly) on then put the back pins in the entire thing lines up perfectly. Also with the back pins in place there is no movement of the barrel in the stock. It's possible mine was having some binding due to this. It also means we may be able to tighten up the assembly slightly between the barrel and the stock. Just something for the future.

We've also found that the gas setting should be set on 1. If you turn the gas setting all the way off by going clockwise you'll find the last one is about a 1/4 notch. Go back until the line in the gas adjuster is vertical. That seems to be right with the heavier ammo. Functions perfectly without excess gas.

One last point. The pictures of the RFB groups that Fireball posted are at 100 meters not 100 yards. We thought they were yards at first, but nope. Double checked and the range is in meters.

Work in progress. Could use all the help possible with RFB owner's results to narrow down what these rifles like. The more, the easier and the sooner we can all be shooting.

The other thing we're wondering is if these rifles actually shoot better free hand. I know with my Tavor I was able to shoot a ragged hole at 50 yards standing with 55 grain PMC ammo. It seemed easier than shooting it off the bench.

 

[Epoxy7]

I thought there might be some load similarities between the M14 and the RFB, but now I don't think so... my M14 with JAE stock is a 1MOA all day long rifle with 168gr Amax, BR2 primers, 42.5gr IMR 4895, 2.800 OAL and new cheap Remington brass where you can actually see the variartion in neck thickness.

Swap the cheap Remingron brass for Lapua brass, and that is basically what I tried in the RFB today with much poorer accuracy. Granted, I did use Fed primers instead of CCI, but they are both match grade primers and I don't think there would be much difference between the two. Mystic - Is there a noticeable difference between BR2 and Federal Match primers in the M14?

Load development was a breeze for the Tavor...

We've been using Federal brass, with CCI BR2 large rifle primers, 168 SMK and the various powders. So far Varget has been the best of the powders. 43.5 Varget has given us the best results with 168 SMK bullets.

Also worth looking into, crimp or don't crimp? The necks on my brass have been fairly tight so no crimping. I checked a bullet that was fed through the RFB but not fired. I measured the OAL and it as still 2.8. So it was good. Worth checking with your ammo, to ensure the bullet isn't getting knocked back or changing the OAL.

 

[AK]

Rather than tuning handloads or the rifle, wouldn't it be prudent to ask Kel-Tec why the accuracy of their new product is not on par with the price? If you're ok with 2-3 MOA, an SKS will get you there a LOT cheaper. If you want 1.0-0.5 MOA, a Classic Green will do it for the same cost and cheaper ammo.

I see the attraction to the RFB - bullpup which is ordinarily not often seen, military styling, all that jazz. I just can't help but feel people are overlooking mediocre accuracy for uniqueness, and that isn't right. If the gun cost $1K it would be a different story, but I can get these kinds of groups with my CZ-858 with the 15" barrel and surplus Czech ammo, both of which are WAY below the cost of the RFB and any premium cartridge, be it factory or handload. Something just doesn't add up. I would love to add an RFB to my safe, but not if I'm going to be frustrated with the groups whenever I take it out.

 

[Mystic Precision]

I thought there might be some load similarities between the M14 and the RFB, but now I don't think so... my M14 with JAE stock is a 1MOA all day long rifle with 168gr Amax, BR2 primers, 42.5gr IMR 4895, 2.800 OAL and new cheap Remington brass where you can actually see the variartion in neck thickness.

Swap the cheap Remingron brass for Lapua brass, and that is basically what I tried in the RFB today with much poorer accuracy. Granted, I did use Fed primers instead of CCI, but they are both match grade primers and I don't think there would be much difference between the two. Mystic - Is there a noticeable difference between BR2 and Federal Match primers in the M14?

Load development was a breeze for the Tavor...

You can't take one ammo and expect it to work in another rifle. Ammo has to be tuned to the needs of the rifle.

As for the primers, accuracy wise, no difference cause you adjust your powder charge to suit. But the CCI cup is definitely harder with less visible dings and slam fires.

Jerry

 

[Mystic Precision]

Actually that's the next direction we have been discussing!!! Just got off the phone with Fireball and we were talking about loading 155 Palma style bullets. We wish you were in this area to help out with tuning this bulpup!! Could definitely use the expertise.

Noticed something else today. I bought one of the front rails for my RFB. When I took my RFB apart the back pin has always been a royal pain to get out and put back in. Well I noticed that when all the pins were out that there is some give with the front two pins. The barrel can actually move slightly back and forth. I installed the front rail (like it by the way and Fireball's had it installed last shoot). When you push back on the barrel with only the first two pins (front handguard assembly) on then put the back pins in the entire thing lines up perfectly. Also with the back pins in place there is no movement of the barrel in the stock. It's possible mine was having some binding due to this. It also means we may be able to tighten up the assembly slightly between the barrel and the stock. Just something for the future.

We've also found that the gas setting should be set on 1. If you turn the gas setting all the way off by going clockwise you'll find the last one is about a 1/4 notch. Go back until the line in the gas adjuster is vertical. That seems to be right with the heavier ammo. Functions perfectly without excess gas.

One last point. The pictures of the RFB groups that Fireball posted are at 100 meters not 100 yards. We thought they were yards at first, but nope. Double checked and the range is in meters.

Work in progress. Could use all the help possible with RFB owner's results to narrow down what these rifles like. The more, the easier and the sooner we can all be shooting.

The other thing we're wondering is if these rifles actually shoot better free hand. I know with my Tavor I was able to shoot a ragged hole at 50 yards standing with 55 grain PMC ammo. It seemed easier than shooting it off the bench.

Battle Rattle is the number 1 thing I would fix before worrying about accuracy testing. Because I haven't played with this rifle, I didn't want to say anything. But since it is mentioned, tighten anything and everything that touches or affects that barrel.

How much wiggle do you need at the muzzle to spray bullets all over yonder?

I would bed and tune the M305's until they were solid with zero wiggle anywhere. Then proper load tuning showed wonderful results.

Just started with a Ruger Mini 14 Target and it also had HORRID bedding from the factory. No wonder these rifles are so wonky to tune. It's all tight now and initial testing show alot of promise.

I wish I could be closer to have a look at how the rifle is put together and really understand what makes this rig tick. You could always send me the rifle for some R&D?????

Or drive up for a day at the range.

have you checked the length of the throat? Seat a bullet as long as possible in a properly sized case. Drop it into the chamber and it should stop before fully falling into the chamber.

If it doesn't, then the throat length needs to be determined. Any freebore here and you can expect generous accuracy.

Let me know...

Jerry

 

[Epoxy7]

Rather than tuning handloads or the rifle, wouldn't it be prudent to ask Kel-Tec why the accuracy of their new product is not on par with the price? If you're ok with 2-3 MOA, an SKS will get you there a LOT cheaper. If you want 1.0-0.5 MOA, a Classic Green will do it for the same cost and cheaper ammo.

Actually $600 more. I own a PE90 target, and I'd love to know the ammo being used to get those results. Because I haven't come close to .5 moa with mine, and that's using a 6.5-20x 50mm Conquest scope. Granted I haven't tried all the ammo available and haven't hand loaded for it. But using the Swiss Ruag 63 grain ammo, I'd call it a 3 moa rifle. Fortunately other ammo has had much better results. Still not .5 moa, and only about 1 moa. If I based it on only the RUAG ammo which the gun was supposedly designed for, I'd be fairly choked.

This rifle is brand new, and real world accuracy isn't really out there yet. This is what we're working on. Real world results and trying to find out what this rifle is actually capable of. I've seen more than my fair share of: My rifle shoots .5 moa all day long "as long as I do my part" posts around the internet. No pictures, or loads or further details. That's not the purpose of this thread.

For all we know at this point, the RFB may be a tack driver with 155 palma bullets loaded properly for it. We just don't know yet. But.. we could use all the help we can get finding out. If you own a RFB please contribute to the accuracy pool. The sooner we can start finding accurate loads the better.

 

[AK]

Hmm, $600 less than a PE90 I could probably swallow, but still. If I owned one I would be happy to contribute to the accuracy testing, alas it looks like only a handful are here thus far. I'm on the waiting list for the KSG but I'd like to see how this one pans out first before dropping the scratch on it.

 

[Epoxy7]

Battle Rattle is the number 1 thing I would fix before worrying about accuracy testing. Because I haven't played with this rifle, I didn't want to say anything. But since it is mentioned, tighten anything and everything that touches or affects that barrel.

There's no rattle once the back pins are in place. The stock is firm at that point. However if you don't push the barrel back that bit then the back pins don't go into place properly. Once this is done it seems very good. In the instruction manual (Normally I refuse to read these) it has you accomplish the same thing by having the barrel on a table and pushing down. Since The C model doesn't have a flash hider or compensator I refuse to do that for fear of damaging the crown. So pushing back with you hand on the barrel accomplishes the same results which apparently are needed. Fireball's rifle was together properly during the tests.

The RFB is strange in that it's built around the barrel. The barrel is the spine with the plastic/polymer connecting around it. Which of course runs contrary to benefiting accuracy. Did I mention I love the AR10

Just started with a Ruger Mini 14 Target and it also had HORRID bedding from the factory. No wonder these rifles are so wonky to tune. It's all tight now and initial testing show alot of promise.

Glad to hear. I have one of those too that I haven't shot yet . I did however have the trigger done which sucked from the factory. I'll look at getting it bedded as well. Then I'll bug you about loads for it!!!

I wish I could be closer to have a look at how the rifle is put together and really understand what makes this rig tick. You could always send me the rifle for some R&D?????Or drive up for a day at the range.

That's a bit of a drive. If you're in the Lower mainland give us a shout. Hahah, sending it out. . That being said would love to have as much info as possible and help getting the most out of these rifles.

have you checked the length of the throat? Seat a bullet as long as possible in a properly sized case. Drop it into the chamber and it should stop before fully falling into the chamber.

If it doesn't, then the throat length needs to be determined. Any freebore here and you can expect generous accuracy.

Let me know...

Jerry

I'll check it out. One of the issues though is that the magazine only allows for a max of 2.8 OAL or you run into space and feeding issues.

 

[Mystic Precision]

I'll check it out. One of the issues though is that the magazine only allows for a max of 2.8 OAL or you run into space and feeding issues.

Has nothing to do with mag length and what will feed in the rifle.

If the throat is so long that the bullet doesn't fully engrave in the rifling before leaving the neck, the odds of sub MOA accuracy is slim to nil.

That is the purest definition of a burnt out barrel I know.

Jerry

 

[Epoxy7]

Has nothing to do with mag length and what will feed in the rifle.

If the throat is so long that the bullet doesn't fully engrave in the rifling before leaving the neck, the odds of sub MOA accuracy is slim to nil.

That is the purest definition of a burnt out barrel I know.

Jerry

Yes it sticks out. I also put a bullet into a pre shot case (Out of the RFB) so the bullet was held in yet still loose enough to be fairly easily pushed back. I pulled the bullet out as far as I could go and then pushed the cartridge into the chamber until the brass was in place as it's supposed to be. The OAL was 2.94. The bullet was pushed back to this length. I did the same thing with my beloved 5R which shoots 2.8 very nicely and got 2.84. This is with 168 SMK.

Berger VLD 168 were just over 3.0.

We'll check this out again when I'm not so tired. But this could be an issue. Although it looks like the mags could be made to accommodate 2.90 with some filing.

I'll make up some dummy bullets. I'll do the Colour the bullet black with a marker so I can see if it makes contact with the throat.

 

[Satain]

Picked it up the other day at Reliable Gun and it was quite heavy. Now with this being said plus the lack of accuracy at that price range I think I will hold off in purchasing this bad boy. Although it would change my mind if this grouping could stay like this out to say 3 or 400 meter's. Any chance of doing some long distance groupings in the future Epoxy7?

 

[Mystic Precision]

Epoxy7, that little bit of jump will not affect your results. You can tune using powder to get things to work.

So we know the throat is indeed short enough to get good accuracy. If you have shot groups in very small powder increments AND accuracy didn't work out, I would be very concerned that the rifle will not shoot.

Watch how the rifle is supported during firing and play with various locations. I have not spent much time shooting bulpups and they may have a different needs for holding????

You are using good bullet, and components. All of this stuff will shoot at least MOA if the rifle/barrel is up to the task.

Retest using the rifle as tight as possible. maybe Benchmark????

But if Varget has shown positive results, repeat the tuning test I wrote about and if it continues to be inconsistent, just enjoy it as a great looking battle rifle.

An accurate rifle will tell you its needs promptly. Maybe you will find a magic combo through many tests but I doubt it.

Jerry

 

[chopper 1]

Rfb accuracy

Hmmm - Any solidly backed info on how tight groups statesiders are getting their RFB's to shoot at? I would think the RFB would perform better - just a thought, but using the barrel as the main "spine" to the gun as a bullpup makes this gun a whole different creature for tuning and accurizing. I suspect it'll take a lot of knowledgeable people testing and playing with these guns before we start understanding how bullpups can be made into tack drivers.

The Amerikans report 1 MOA on the RFB forum.

 

[Mystic Precision]

Any links?

Love to see what they used and how they did their testing.

Jerry

 

[stormtrooper1015]

Any links?

Love to see what they used and how they did their testing.

Jerry

Here's one of the posts at KTOG....

Re: RFB Accuracy Survey
Reply #2 - 01/06/10 at 18:53:55
1/2" moa @ 100yds with reloaded Federal 7.62 brass. RL15 40.7gr, Hornady #30501 (168gr BTHP), Winchester primers. Otherwise 2-4" with Privi 168 match or Hornady Amax. 5 shot groups. RFB #170. Over 1200 rounds fired


And this stuff from GunBlast...

"Accuracy varied from good to superb, depending upon the ammo chosen. Federal Gold Medal 168 grain hollowpoint was by far the most accurate ammunition tested in this RFB carbine, grouping reliably under three-quarters of an inch for three shots at one hundred yards. The military ball ammo grouped closer to two inches. Any rifle is only as accurate as the ammo fed it, and the ball ammo was from broken-down machine gun belts. It was cheap and perfectly reliable, but better stuff is needed for good accuracy.

With the location of the box magazine, shooting from a conventional benchrest for accuracy is a problem. However, the RFB worked very well in the Target Shooting, Inc. rifle rest, allowing me to see just how accurately the RFB could shoot."

I picked up some cheap military 145gr fmj to get me on paper, before I start throwing Ballistic SilverTips downrange at $2/pull. I'm going to focus my loadings on a 168 ballistic tip round - again, it'll be primarily for hunting larger critters... And apparently there is a package waiting for me at home... my 3 year old son is sitting beside in full guard mode...

 

[Epoxy7]

Three shot groups don't really tell the whole story with this rifle. Fireball had some three shot groups like that as well, but 4 and 5 opened it right up.

Found an interesting post on the Kel-Tec forum. These results seem more in line with what we found. Rather than some of the stuff on the internet that I'm becoming very suspicious of. IE 3/4 moa all day long with Federal Gold. When we tried Federal that wasn't the case.

http://www.ktog.org/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1295961992/2

Although there isn't much to support this claim, other than the fact that the other stuff looks to be close enough to our results. At least here's some more info. 150 grain silvertips were the best for this guy? I don't know.

 

[Wrong Way]

I'm half tempted to send mine to Mystic for break-in

 

[chopper 1]

Rfb accuracy

Here's one of the posts at KTOG....

Re: RFB Accuracy Survey
Reply #2 - 01/06/10 at 18:53:55
1/2" moa @ 100yds with reloaded Federal 7.62 brass. RL15 40.7gr, Hornady #30501 (168gr BTHP), Winchester primers. Otherwise 2-4" with Privi 168 match or Hornady Amax. 5 shot groups. RFB #170. Over 1200 rounds fired


And this stuff from GunBlast...

"Accuracy varied from good to superb, depending upon the ammo chosen. Federal Gold Medal 168 grain hollowpoint was by far the most accurate ammunition tested in this RFB carbine, grouping reliably under three-quarters of an inch for three shots at one hundred yards. The military ball ammo grouped closer to two inches. Any rifle is only as accurate as the ammo fed it, and the ball ammo was from broken-down machine gun belts. It was cheap and perfectly reliable, but better stuff is needed for good accuracy.

With the location of the box magazine, shooting from a conventional benchrest for accuracy is a problem. However, the RFB worked very well in the Target Shooting, Inc. rifle rest, allowing me to see just how accurately the RFB could shoot."

I picked up some cheap military 145gr fmj to get me on paper, before I start throwing Ballistic SilverTips downrange at $2/pull. I'm going to focus my loadings on a 168 ballistic tip round - again, it'll be primarily for hunting larger critters... And apparently there is a package waiting for me at home... my 3 year old son is sitting beside in full guard mode...

Like he said -

Those of you who have trouble getting tight groups -

Remember the RFB is a bullpup, in a rest the 2 support points are VERY close together resulting in less stability.

I am testing with an extension forward from the forearm and a monopod at the rear of the stock. If necessary I will extend the rear as well for bench rest shooting stability.

Also the triggers are crisp but heavy - squeeze as slowly as possible.

Will post results when the weather is warmer - I cant get tight groups when I'm shivering !