P1 vs P38

One subtle change made in the steel frame P38s in mid-1943 was to reinforce the frame in the vicinity of the trigger pin by adding a bit more metal stock. This is seen as a downward "bulge" in the frame. This contour was maintained in the post-war alluminum frames as well.

The P38 was a practical piece of engineering where form seemed to follow function, unlike the wonderfully built P08 Luger, where, to some extent, engineering appeared to be pursued for it's own sake. The P38 locking system still exists in the Beretta 92 of today. Over the years I've owned a cyq with cog hammer, an ac41, an ac43, a HP mis-match, 2 byf44s (one of which my late uncle brought home from the wreck of the German Army at Falaise), a post-war Manhurin marked P1, a post-war P38 sans pin, 2 post-war P1s with and w/o the frame pin, and a P4. They all functioned reliably and shot passing well. Nothing more needs to be said about a service pistol.

The P38 safety is a good one for a service pistol which more often than not inflicts more casualties on it's own troops than the other side's by reason of the troops dicking around with them.

The so-called "Bavarian" M1 Carbine is a bizarre modification to an already sound sighting system which never needed to occur.
 
The Wizard said:
If you guys want the straight information on the P38 vs P1 to to the P38 forum. There is so much misinformation about the P1/P38 that it would take days to relate it here.

On the 9 mm ammunition subject. Awhile back some surplus 9 mm ammunition was sold in the USA that was 1908's British submachine ammo. Will have to search to get the correct scoop on it.

This from FirearmsID.com :
9 X 19 MM Hirtenberger AG

WARNING: Austrian ammunition maker Hirtenberger AG has put the word out concerning a quantity of its 9x19 mm ammunition that is "unique for use in any handgun." According to a November 7 BATF Industry News release. "The ammunition was loaded to produce pressures far in excess of that intended for use in handguns...This ammunition should not be fired." The ammunition was produced for the British Ministry of Defense from 1990 through 1992 for use in submachine guns "under adverse conditions" and carries the "L7A1" designation. While BATF is unaware of this ammunition being imported into the U.S., the maker advises that up to 12 million rounds were sold recently on the world surplus market.

The ammunition covered by this warning can be identified by the following headstamps:

12 o’clock position: HP

3 o’clock position: 90, 91, or 92

6 o’clock position: L7A1

9 o’clock position: a cross within a circle

For additional information contact BATF at (202) 927-8320.

Source: BATF Bulletin, November 7, 1996

American Rifleman, January 1997; page 6

IAA Journal, Jan./Feb. 1997; page 4\

You may also want to check out this YouTube video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=klfidhz9Pzk
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Thanks for that info, so it appears what my friend told me was correct on Hot 9mm SMG ammo only.:canadaFlag:
 
purple said:
One subtle change made in the steel frame P38s in mid-1943 was to reinforce the frame in the vicinity of the trigger pin by adding a bit more metal stock. This is seen as a downward "bulge" in the frame. This contour was maintained in the post-war alluminum frames as well.

The P38 was a practical piece of engineering where form seemed to follow function, unlike the wonderfully built P08 Luger, where, to some extent, engineering appeared to be pursued for it's own sake. The P38 locking system still exists in the Beretta 92 of today. Over the years I've owned a cyq with cog hammer, an ac41, an ac43, a HP mis-match, 2 byf44s (one of which my late uncle brought home from the wreck of the German Army at Falaise), a post-war Manhurin marked P1, a post-war P38 sans pin, 2 post-war P1s with and w/o the frame pin, and a P4. They all functioned reliably and shot passing well. Nothing more needs to be said about a service pistol.

The P38 safety is a good one for a service pistol which more often than not inflicts more casualties on it's own troops than the other side's by reason of the troops dicking around with them.

The so-called "Bavarian" M1 Carbine is a bizarre modification to an already sound sighting system which never needed to occur.
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Great posts guys, I love the passion, that I know comes from many,many hours of reading/research.

I feel a little blessed to have owned at least a mismatched HP, and always felt they were a sound and reliable design.

Ok Purple you got me onto another story now, the Falaise Gap!

Who was your uncle with, the SAR ? And how did he come into the P-38?

I know veterans returning were warned about carrying battelfield pick ups home nd the consequences. One vet here i worked with from the West Nova Scotia Reg't, said he brought a P-08 home, but they were warned on approach to Halifax in fall of 45 any german weapons found on disembarkation and it was back to Europe for occupation duty. Alot of stuff he said went in the drink outside Halifax harbour.

The P-08 went to his landloard in 1946 on Windsor street in HFX for his rent LOL!:canadaFlag:
 
My uncle was a RCEME tank fitter who served from Normandy through to the end in Germany. He was one of a small group of Cdn Army personnel who attended courses on the Sherman tank at the US Armored School in Ft Knox, KY. These men were then required to pass on their formal schooling to others through OJT. I have some good B&W photos of him in the field during that time. In the 1950's he was pestered by the Army to come back as a civilian tank mechanic to work on the Shermans which were then used by the militia armoured units. He declined as he had his full ration of the Army during the war. As an aside, he was very interested to learn that I had attended a course in Ft Knox some 40 yrs later.

Like a lot of vets he was quite reticent about divulging the full details, but he did have some hairy experiences in Normandy, incl being cut off from his unit for several days while engaged in repair/recovery operations. He was heavily involved in the fabrication of the Kangaroo APCs which were used in Operations Totalize and Tractable to close the Falaise Gap and received a commendation for this. This work involved modifications to the M7 SP guns which the 3rd Inf Div initially used. The 105mm guns were removed and the chassis were then given expedient add-on armour from knocked out tanks and re-cycled German obstacles from the invasion beaches. These were the first APCs used by the allied side, other than the M3 half-tracks which really couldn't be called an APC. I have some of his photos from the field incl a couple of pretty graphic ones of the carnage at Falaise. These pretty much look like the aftermath of the Iraqi retreat from Kuwait in 1991, except they are in B&W and the dead and the equipment are German. He counselled me to stay away from tanks because he had the job of recovering and repairing many knocked out ones, incl scraping the remains of the crews from the interior of the vehicle. So much for the glory of bold armoured charges. And guess where I went first when I first joined the Army....:confused:

Exactly how he got the P38, I'm not sure, but he did get it at Falaise where there were plenty for the taking. He also had a Luger which he didn't bring home. He mentioned having a M98 Mauser as well which he had thought about bringing home to sporterize. He also brought back his own personal issue S&W revolver and another matching one which was retrieved from a knocked out Sherman. These and the P38 were mailed home in pieces after VE Day. I now own these 3 pistols as well as some of his other memorabilia and personal gear. One of his really neat photos is off a sky-full of planes and gliders passing overhead on the way to Arnhem in the fall of 1944 for the ill-fated Operation Market-Garden. He didn't know what this was all about at the time, but knew it was something big.

On the South Alberta Regt, I knew BGen Jack Summers, who was a troop leader in the SAR and won an MC at Falaise. He was a prof in pharmacy at the University of Saskatchewan and wrote the book, Tangled Web, not too long before his death. When I was in Normandy I made a point of visiting St Lambert where Maj David Currie had won the VC while serving as a squadron commander in the SAR.

On the topic of vet bring-backs, there was a prohibition against this, but a lot of the fellows did it anyway. Many of the men I knew as a kid had served in Europe and had brought something back. There were a lot of P38s and Lugers and I remember a Broomhandle Mauser as well as a mint Browning HP. There was some other exotic stuff as well incl a couple of Thompsons, STENs, an MP40, and an M3 Greasegun, which was my favourite. The guys would let us handle and shoot this stuff, which was great fun. Lord knows where it all wound up when the original owners lost interest or moved on. I suppose a lot of it got buried or thrown into the bottom of the dugout. Its been 50 yrs now, so who knows?
 
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Bavarian rear sight

purple said:
The P38 was a practical piece of engineering where form seemed to follow function, unlike the wonderfully built P08 Luger, where, to some extent, engineering appeared to be pursued for it's own sake.

...

The P38 safety is a good one for a service pistol which more often than not inflicts more casualties on it's own troops than the other side's by reason of the troops dicking around with them.

The so-called "Bavarian" M1 Carbine is a bizarre modification to an already sound sighting system which never needed to occur.
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Just look at the Borchardt, the ancestor of the Luger, and you will have to agree that this was one hell of a leap in elegance and simplification. In both pistol, most of the form is dictated by the use of the toggle system. But you are wright in the sens that so much of the mechanism was out in the open, just begging for dirt or mud to jam it, that it wasn't even funny. That, and the cost of fabrication is what killed the Luger when Germany was rearming before WW-II. But why is it today, 100 years later, still so attractive and calling for such steep price? Elegance, I can't see no other reason. So in the Luger, the mechanism (function) did dictate the form, and the result is nice. Sure did hypnotize me. But I got the Swiss 06/29 version, both because of it's condition and the fact that it was in what actually is the original Luger calibre, the bottleneck cartridge 7,65x21. Also had the right length of barrel for my class of PAL. Ain't she a beauty!:

psar812.jpg


Sure thing, that the safety of the P.38 is outstanding. Another icon of the era was the Browning HP, also an eye catcher IMO. But can you beleive there was no firing pin safety on the HP? In a pistol that had to be carried in Condition 1 ("cocked & locked") to be in any kind of of preparedness for action. It was still in use (the Inglis) in the Canadian army in Bosnia in the late 90ies and a few accidents happen whereby the pistols fired, with the safety on, when dropped muzzle down on the hard (steel) floor surfaces of tanks and APC. I was surprised to learn that this flaw had only been corrected by FN, on the Mk 3 models, as of 1988.

Nothing bizarre nor surprising about the "Bavarian" rear wight. Most police and border guards to whom it was destined had served in the army and were not familiar with the peep sight but accustomed to rear square leaf (or V notch). The switch is a perfectly sound decision IMO. And besides, this carbine has better grouping than any one I've shot or owned before. But that, I agree, may only be a coincidence.
 
The most common "buddy killer" or "shoot-self-in-the-foot" move with an autoloader is always removing the mag to unload, and then failing to retract the slide to clear the chamber. It's tough to legislate against this with any type of mechanical safety.

The safety disadvantages of the Browning HP, or the Colt M1911 for that matter, are probably more theoretical than real, at least for trained troops. They can be carried loaded and locked at the half-#### with reliability and safety.

Theoretically the P38/P1, or any other double action pistol, can normally get the first round off quicker than can a single action auto, but the "Quick Draw McGraw" scenario seldom occurs. Then there's that disconcerting heavier trigger pull for the first round in a double action which tends to shift the piece off target. I've got to admit that I always fire a double action pistol or revolver by manually cocking the hammer first with the opposite thumb in order to get that lighter and consistent trigger pull. I learned this on the Colt Peacemaker and it has always been my habit. You tend to favour what you were trained on and carried. Much as I admire the P38, I'd take a Browning HP or 1911 Colt any time.
 
purple said:
One subtle change made in the steel frame P38s in mid-1943 was to reinforce the frame in the vicinity of the trigger pin by adding a bit more metal stock. This is seen as a downward "bulge" in the frame. This contour was maintained in the post-war alluminum frames as well.

The P38 was a practical piece of engineering where form seemed to follow function, unlike the wonderfully built P08 Luger, where, to some extent, engineering appeared to be pursued for it's own sake. The P38 locking system still exists in the Beretta 92 of today. Over the years I've owned a cyq with cog hammer, an ac41, an ac43, a HP mis-match, 2 byf44s (one of which my late uncle brought home from the wreck of the German Army at Falaise), a post-war Manhurin marked P1, a post-war P38 sans pin, 2 post-war P1s with and w/o the frame pin, and a P4. They all functioned reliably and shot passing well. Nothing more needs to be said about a service pistol.

The P38 safety is a good one for a service pistol which more often than not inflicts more casualties on it's own troops than the other side's by reason of the troops dicking around with them.

The so-called "Bavarian" M1 Carbine is a bizarre modification to an already sound sighting system which never needed to occur.
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Yes I had that carbine and it was a sad modification to a fine Carbine.
 
I would think if the German Army and Federal Police used the P1 from the 1950`s till 1991 the design must be fairly good and robust.
 
Darwin award

purple said:
The most common "buddy killer" or "shoot-self-in-the-foot" move with an autoloader is always removing the mag to unload, and then failing to retract the slide to clear the chamber. It's tough to legislate against this with any type of mechanical safety.
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This reminds me a frequently quoted proverb in the engineering/design community: "You can design something fool proof, but you can't design it bloody fool proof".

As an example Cobalt irradiators for sterilizing food and medical supplies: despite multiple redundant safety interlocks, defence in depth, strict procedures, training, you name it, operators still find a way to enter the room when the source is present although they are well aware of the effects of radiations and the particularly high levels in a sterilization installation.

Someone needs to win the "Darwin award"... But it's all too sad for family members and fellow workers.
 
Recoil again, P1 vs. P.38

The Wizard said:
For those who might be interested I have an article in pdf format entitled "M39 ans P38 Autos Square Off In 11,000 Torture Test" by George C. Nonte from "Shooting Times" March 1973. For those of you who think the alloy P1/P38's won't last you should read it. Contact me if you would like a copy.
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A warm thanks to Wizard, I just read the article and this does dispel any of my previous doubts. I don't think I need to check for cracks in my P1 every time I come back from a session and clean it.

And hey, a Glock 34 slide rides on a plastic frame with less that 15grams (1/2 once) of metal inserts acting as frame wear points AND barrel stopper.

The reason I bought this P1 in the first place, was to make it my work horse for 9mm practice. It seems very well suited for that. At that time, I had sold my previous 9mm (a SIG P226) and was down to only one "restricted", not to loose the touch (and the license...). I bought the cyq #1 and the P1 at the same time, wanting to keep the cyq as a collectible and not put too much wear and tear on it. Since then, I added 20 more to my collection of (mostly) military pistols. "If you know how many guns you own, you don't have enough... ", but like the drunkard, I will say, after the 357 SIG on order (P226 Elite Dark) I promise that's it, no more...

Which brings me back to the subject of P1 vs P.38, from the recoil angle this time. Twenty years ago, I had a big disappointment with the Walther PPK/S. My station manager and my self went to try his PPK/S in .380 Auto, a calibre I had never shot and him, my P226, a calibre he had never shot. I shot first: Ouch! what a slap in my hand! "Straight blow back pistol" I thought. If that's the price to pay, I'd rather have a small 9x19 anytime: more power less kick. And some 9mm are pretty small to carry (hypothetical consideration here guys, don't get me wrong, I don't walk around with any of my pistols, got that? mister CFC who is monitoring the chat traffic...).

I said to him, "try this, you're in for a big surprise!" He shot "the big nine", with a bit of apprehension, but this instantly put a big smile on his face: Wow! how smooth!

So recoil can be a turn off, if you're not the type with big furry paws and muscular forearms. Remember, part of the rationale for introducing the M1 Carbine was that troop support personnel were often apprehensive of firing the M1911/A1 in .45Auto. Like I wrote above, 14% more recoil on an aluminum P1, on the last round in the magazine. But my example with the PPK/S is over pessimist, because a straight blow back will kick more anyway, since the slide is lighter and it's springs doesn't absorb as much energy to slow down the rear movement and ensure proper return to battery, so that felt recoil is significantly less, all other factors being equal. And many factors affect recoil, all pistols not being created equal, even in the same calibre, with same ammo. Case in point, my Brownings 1922 and BDA (aka. Beretta 84-Cheetah), both in .380 Auto, are much softer ladies. I'll update you on the recoil of the straight blow back: got a .380 Walther PP en route in the mail; finally found one in the barrel length compatible with my PAL class.

P1: 880 grams
P.38: 1000 grams

I will take the P.38 anytime, but of course, I'm not the one having to carry it around all day. Difference is less than 1/3 of a beer in my bladder...
 
Got my P1 today from Tradex. Appears to be really nice condition. I just may have to fight my way through the snow to our range. Too stressful to have to wait until spring.
Bill
 
bushwhacker said:
Got my P1 today from Tradex. Appears to be really nice condition. I just may have to fight my way through the snow to our range. Too stressful to have to wait until spring.
Bill
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Got mine today too. :) Anyone know what bullet weight the West German Army used for 9mm?
 
Bushwacker or Y2K, could one of you post pics of the P1s from TradeEx. I ordered a M14 from him today and was eyeballing the P1s as well, its just the slides looked kind of funny in the Pictures on their site. They look parkerized against a shiny anodized alloy frame.:wave:
 
The P1 is an excellent pistol. They don't like anything other than round-nose slugs, and they can't handle heavy or hot loads, but they work very well with the right ammo, and they have a natural point of aim.
 
Sorry to disagree

UCSPanther said:
The P1 is an excellent pistol. They don't like anything other than round-nose slugs, and they can't handle heavy or hot loads, but they work very well with the right ammo, and they have a natural point of aim.
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Of the P1, your talking, is it?

Everything you wrote is false, except first sentence and last 7 words. I never has a failure to feed or failure to eject with anyone of my P.38 or P1, with any ammo, including the natural choice and best round for the 9mm: 115rg. JHP. I've clocked rounds fired from my P1 at 1315 fps, which is 21% more energy than the classic 365 ft-lbs given for the 9mm round i.e 1195 fps.

Consider going back to Texas Instrument or a simple Casio with +. -, x and divide...
 
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