Was there a British issue WWII REVOLVER you could use 9mm ammo in?

[Ganderite]

I have used 9mm brass to make temporary ammo for my S&W. Used a modest load of powder, of course.

I have since bought a good supply of real brass.

If your pistol has a shoulder in the cylinder to locate the rimless case, it works perfectly.

 

[smellie]

In the war in North Africa, they would have run into Italian 9mm Glisenti rounds. They were dimensionally identical to the Parabellum round but loaded a lot milder. The Italian Model 38 cartridge was prominently headstamped and developed Parabellum pressures.

 

[nntw]

So here's a question: would 9mm be safe to use in a .357?

I'm not conversant with the pressures, etc, generated by .357. But I seem to recall reading that police forces gave up their .357s when they realized 9mm had the same kind of stopping power.

 

[t-star]

So here's a question: would 9mm be safe to use in a .357?

I'm not conversant with the pressures, etc, generated by .357. But I seem to recall reading that police forces gave up their .357s when they realized 9mm had the same kind of stopping power.

it's safe enough, just STUPID- ruger makes a 38/357/9MM CONVERTIBLE in the blackhawk line, as did astra, ( the astra constable - uses a unique switch cylinder and moon clips- and it's double action) - the blackhawk is a single action and switches cylinders- where it gets STUPID is that you're running a 355 bullet in a 357 bore- very SLOPPY- it's the 38 special +that compares to the 9mm, not the 357- has to do with bullet weights, as well as velocities- the old loadings for the 38SUPER could APPROACH a 357 , but it was hard on the gun- this 9mm "madness" started over GUN CAPACITY - ie 6vs 15 or whatever, and the bad guys had "better guns"- then they found out the 9 did not have enough stopping power, the 10 had too much and settled on the 40 - which is like a middle of the road 357

 

[nntw]

it's okay, not planning to do anything stupid. just wondering.

there's a part of me that has a SHTF mentality; I don't know if you read "The Road" by Cormac McCarthy, about a father and son surviving in a post-apocalypic wasteland. they find a stash of supplies, including .45 ACP and .30-30 ammunition, and they have a revolver that doesn't suit either.

so, in a case like that, guess 9mm in a .357 might not be that bad an idea!

 

[t-star]

it's okay, not planning to do anything stupid. just wondering.

there's a part of me that has a SHTF mentality; I don't know if you read "The Road" by Cormac McCarthy, about a father and son surviving in a post-apocalypic wasteland. they find a stash of supplies, including .45 ACP and .30-30 ammunition, and they have a revolver that doesn't suit either.

so, in a case like that, guess 9mm in a .357 might not be that bad an idea!

that's the VERY REASON for the CONVERTIBLES=38/357/9mm and 45c0lt/45acp- you just switch cylinders according to what ammo you have- note however, that the 45 bore matches in both cases-theoretically it should shoot better-like i said 9mm ( 355 diameter) in a 357 bore is a little sloppy-if you just fire the 9 in the 357 as is without changing cylinders, you get unreliable ignition, as with the 45s as well- you NEED the shorter cylinder to hold the rimless round in place, as it will move forward in the cylinder without anything to stop it- the astra uses those moonclips as well to accomplish the same thing, but you also have to change cylinders
if you do decide to get a new revolver, get a FACTORY CONVERTIBLE- ruger won't sell you the spare cylinder and will insist you SEND THE GUN IN TO THE FACTORY OR REPAIR DEPOT TO FIT IT

 

[odelleng]

nntw;

My condolences on the loss of your dad. I lost mine on 1 April 08. He was also a veteran (49th Div Recce attached to 1 Cdn Army) and he carried various handguns in addition to a long gun. He was also a gun maker and gunsmith. He told me flat out they used 9mm in their .38 S&W chambered revolvers a lot due to lack of proper ammo being available through their own supply. He said they had to knock the fired cases out with a stick - at least the ones that went bang. Truly not a good thing but also something that seemed to "accepted" during war time.

And yes, I miss him a ton too. So many unanswered questions remained.

 

[smellie]

We all miss the hell out of our Dads when they go, even if we didn't get along all that well when they were here. It's just so hard for OUR generation to understand what THEIRS went through..... and I grew up with my elementary school 2 blocks from a major target.... and Comrade Stalin threatening us half the time.

As you say, there are just so many unanswered (and all too often unasked) questions. My Dad was in a Hurricane squadron and then was Chief Inspector (Instruments) at Aircraft Reapir in Edmonton, where they rebuilt several hundred P-39s for Mother Russia. When I miss the hell outta him, I watch "The Battle of Britain": they used one of HIS Hurricanes in the film, one he serviced every day with 133 Sqn in Boundary Bay and Tofino.

But we can never know the challenges that that generation faced, no matter how much we read and question and even experience ourselves.... because the ties have changed. Look back with respect.... it's all we can do now.

As to 9mm Para in a .38S&W revolver, you have to remember that the mil-spec load was originally a 200-grain bullet (the Webley "Manstopper" loading, basically) and this was changed to a 178-grain RNFMJ slug just in time to get away from any Hague Convention charges. Everybody knew that German 9mm was loaded very hot and I would think they avoided the "black ball" German SMG loads like the plague. Of course, it might be nice to avoid those pretty green Proof rounds, too! But guys who were actually in combat have told me that they stayed away from the German ammo because it was too hot for our guns.

Still, if you have half a dozen guys to shoot..... and no .380 MkIIz rounds.... and a whack of 9mm pistol loads or Glisenti ammo.... it would be rather tempting. Nice round holes don't look good in my jacket, anyway and, if they leak, it's even worse.
BTW, all those revolvers had a special rifling pitch to accommodate the 200-grain bullet. Wonder why nobody makes tha ammunition? You can't even find an inexpensive 200-grain mould! Market there for somebody smart...

 

[sail32]

Apparently Israel made a number of S&W MP copies in 9mm, with 5 or 6 inch barrels. You would find the reference in an older copie of Smith's book, "Arms of the world", I think it is called. White cover, 8 1/2 x 11 about 2 inches thick. Volume 4 or possibly 5.

 

[nntw]

A large number of Colt 1911's were shipped to the UK during World War 2. The 1st Canadian Parachute Regiment was issued with 1943 manufactured Colt 1911A1's in .45acp. As they were also part of the British Airborne Division it is very plausible that the poles also carried the 1911A1. The Inglis Browning 9mm pistol was not issued to Canadian Forces until Oct 1944, don't know about other allied armies.

9mm fired in a handgun built to shoot .38/200 revolver ammunition would be an accident waiting to happen because of different pressures generated by the 2 different cartridges.

Went back and reread this thread- one of the first I contributed to on this forum.

I've got to go back thru the war pics I have of my late father and see if I can find a picture of my dad with a sidearm, and see if I can tell anything about it. Wouldn't mind an excuse to buy a 1911- the 'heritage thing'...

 

[John Sukey]

Just another thought, was the pistol a Webley, Enfield or possibly a S&W? Since lots of S&W's were sent to Britain chambered for that anemic round.

 

[Brutus]

I read somewhere that the officer was issued the pistol and very few rounds for it and told basically, "Have a nice war".

Very little extra ammo. So, they had to find something else that would go bang or the gun was basically useless.

Wow...is 9mm really 35000psi?? Didn't realize it was that hot.

I heard the same story too cantom.
Something about a total of 12 (!!!) 38 S&W rounds being reissued to commissioned officers in European campaigns!
No wonder you see many battlefield pictures of Commonwealth officers using rifle/smgs.

 

[tactical870]

May have been talking about 45 acp being used in a revolver as I understand that some S&W 455 hand ejectors cut for 45 acp saw service in WWII....

 

[Riflechair]

The short answer is no

 

[cyclone]

I heard the same story too cantom.
Something about a total of 12 (!!!) 38 S&W rounds being reissued to commissioned officers in European campaigns!
No wonder you see many battlefield pictures of Commonwealth officers using rifle/smgs.

This 12-round mystique (Per Wikipedia, see also: Weeks, John, World War II Small Arms, London: Orbis Publishing Ltd. (1979), p. 76) is something that even video games like Call of Duty have caught on to....

The short answer is no

Though , as Ganderite said , that didn't much stop 'em from trying !

 

[plinker 777]

Newbie on the subject,however I thought I read somewhere that the Longbranch made sten{at least} was made in 45acp.....which would match with your Dads 1911

 

[Sly Old Fox]

They used to nip the base of the 9mm with side cutters so they would not fall into the chamber of the 38 and they will fire that way...not a safe thing to do but if you are in battle and no ammo..........

Correct. I was told of the use of the side cutter for the 9mm by a vet from the Italian campaign.

 

[CeeZer]

I had some respect for British '####' 30 years ago... not even a slight shade of it lately...

And am VERY ashamed I did in the first place!!!

 

[CeeZer]

Oh, I meant to say - 'sh1t'.

 

[cyclone]

Oh, I meant to say - 'sh1t'.

Didn't we all ?