Antiques - "no modern chamberings"....???????

H Wally

H Wally

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Starting this thread because I've run into this repeatedly recently and it's confusing me.

Having talked to several very knowledgeable and respectable gunsmiths I keep getting the same answer: Rechambering antique handguns to a modern caliber will make them restricted/prohib.

None will explain this or avoid answering, and C-68's antique law only stipulates that handgun must be pre-1898 and not in X Y Z calibers.

Has there been a ruling, clarification or internal memo to gunsmiths from the CFC/RCMP that has said no modern cartridges????:confused::confused::confused:

Again, I would have ignored it, but this info is coming from knowledgeable and trustworthy gunsmiths... wondering if anyone can shed some light on what's going on.



*Personally I believe that the smiths have been quietly taken aside and told not to rechamber antiques to modern cartridges, for various reasons and are stating that it's illegal to avoid having to explain the actual facts to numerous fudds.


PS Please do not discuss the legitimacy of rechambering antiques, the safety of rechambering, or your personal beliefs about keeping antiques under the radar - I'm trying to find out if there is some other law or ruling or memo that has affected antique law.
 
Ask Dingus. He is the resident Antique Guru from what I have seen here. He has a SAA colt chambered in .45 acp with an antique letter, and there has been tons of Webleys in .45 acp sold on the EE over the years.

The way I see it you can rechamber just not to any of the listed calibers. The idiots who wrote this law left plenty of modern calibre's off of the list, and there is nothing that would lead me to believe that rechambering to one of these would make it restricted.
 
I am of two minds; one is that a great many people who should know, have an erroneous knowledge of the law and in particular are not familiar with SOR 98-464. The other is that the provincial firearms office has a number of policies which exceed the criminal code and this may be one of them. In other words, if a gun is new to the system, such as the ones that Dingus brings in, it would be classed as an antique. On the other hand if a gun is already in the system as say a 45 colt, it may by provincial policy not to reclassify it as an antique if it is rechambered or modified to say 45 auto.
The problem with the policies is that I don't think they are public knowledge and you only find out about them when you run afoul of them. The RCMP who are in charge of the registry claim such policies do not exist or at least they have in the past.

cheers mooncoon
 
I'm glad this hasn't devolved into a .22WMR thread yet....:p

Just to attempt to add something of worth :nest: , though, it's basically - like so much else you'll find pertaining to firearms - all about what is listed by name, and what isn't - IMHO, there's no reason why the M1941 Johnson rifle's magazine ought to be pinned :rolleyes: , but it just happens to not have been one of those exempted by name....:(
 
Not all the gunsmiths think it's illegal. I've been talking to one understands the law including the legality of rechambering to "modern" cartridges.

My guess is that the 'smiths you are talking to are unsure of the law and are not taking any chances on running afoul of it.
 
Really a 45 Acp SAA is a MKII 455 SAA because the 45 Acp type cylinder is the exact same as the 455 MKII case chamber so the SAA really is 455 but they also shoot 45 Acp because the case mouth is stoped by the sharp chamber throat corner.
The Throat is .452 but so are alot or most webley MKIs and MKIIs chamber throats and bores.

You can shoot 455 fiochhi in most SAA colts that are listed as 45 Acp the 45 Acp listing is just that most guys and gals that dont reload prefer to shoot the cheeper $25 a box 45 ACP than the + $60 Fiochhi ammo.
So even if they said no modern chamberings a 45 acp cylinder is a MKII 45 Webley chambered cylinder :cool:

Anyway there were alot of colts rechambered to 44 Special by christy in the USA long time ago, i think he was the frist to do it on a comercal basis.
 
Here is a cartridge chart that I will not contest its accuracy, but have kept on file for a while as a guide line to part 7 of SOR/ 98-464: http://yarchive.net/gun/ammo/cartridge_interchange.html I'm not a lawyer, but I believe the interpretation specific to part 7 reads pretty easy. IMO it is cartridge specific. The catch and the grey area is the quote: "other than a handgun designed or adapted to discharge" those mentioned cartridges in part 7.
To muddy the waters even more, read part 5: To me this reads that if I built an adapter to fire 20 ga. shells out of a 14 ga. shotgun, I will be contravening that part of the law. But if it just so happens that a 14 ga. can fire 16 ga. shells without adaptation or alteration, it is no longer an antique as well. I know this last paragraph is off topic from the original post. But to me, it shows the ambiguity of how the regulations are written from section to section.
I think the only way, unfortunately, that you will get a steadfast clarification is through the courts. And I'm not the guy willing to do that! I work in an industry where the manuals that I use for certification are filled with so much ambiguity, as to relieve the manufacturer from liability. I believe the law is written for this same manner. Finding a clear answer to the original poster's question will be next to impossible here, if not in court, from case to case that may or have already been brought forward to them.
 
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:redface:Re reading my long winded post. I realized that it really didn't address your question:
No, I haven't heard of an internal memo by the R.C.M.P. techs to gunsmiths addressing this. But I have seen some dealers, with gunsmith services on site, selling antiques in the past that fall into this grey area. Have you asked this question to the R.C.M.P.?
 
I'm thinking that's my next step. I have yet to get any sort of contact with the antique verifiers, so I may circumvent them and try to talk with the RCMP techs in ottawa and find out what they know about antiques.
 
H Wally said:
I'm thinking that's my next step. I have yet to get any sort of contact with the antique verifiers, so I may circumvent them and try to talk with the RCMP techs in ottawa and find out what they know about antiques.
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I'd say just keep shopping around and moving through gunsmiths until you find one that knows what they're talking about. My experience is that instead of telling you they can't do a job or can't handle it due to parts availablity, lack of knowledge in that particular antique, etc etc, some gunsmiths just go the easy route of telling you altering an antique will mean registration.

If you call the RCMP techs, depending on the tech you get will depend on what different answer you get. It doesn't seem to be very uniform.

And if you run out of Canadian gunsmiths there are plenty of US ones that specialize in antiques, some who's work is highly sought after.
 
H Wally said:
I'm thinking that's my next step. I have yet to get any sort of contact with the antique verifiers, so I may circumvent them and try to talk with the RCMP techs in ottawa and find out what they know about antiques.
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Speaking of circumvention ;) , the RCMP/CFC techs have effectively "verified" that .45 ACP rechamberings are good to go :yingyang: , on the basis of all the antique-authentification letters issued for Webleys to date ? :nest:
 
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Just in passing, there ain't no such animule as a .45ACP Webley. There are Webleys where the arse end of the cylinder has been buggered so you can use moon clips and .45ACP rounds, but the revolver is NOT chambered for that round. As a matter of fact, the 455 case is larger in diameter than a .45ACP case.
 
loki_81 said:
I'd say just keep shopping around and moving through gunsmiths until you find one that knows what they're talking about. My experience is that instead of telling you they can't do a job or can't handle it due to parts availablity, lack of knowledge in that particular antique, etc etc, some gunsmiths just go the easy route of telling you altering an antique will mean registration.

If you call the RCMP techs, depending on the tech you get will depend on what different answer you get. It doesn't seem to be very uniform.

And if you run out of Canadian gunsmiths there are plenty of US ones that specialize in antiques, some who's work is highly sought after.
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I can understand their concern over rechambering, since our society is hell bent on suing these days so often it just isn't worth the risk in doing anything out of the standard "checking headspace and fitting scope mounts".

For asking the techs and verifiers, I'm going to ask a few of them, and get it in writing. I find if they're talking out of their butt they'll refuse to provide a written statement :p We shall see.


cyclone said:
Speaking of circumvention ;) , the RCMP/CFC techs have effectively "verified" that .45 ACP rechamberigns are good to go :yingyang: , on the basis of all the antique-authentification letters issued for Webleys to date ? :nest:
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Indirectly, yes, they have condoned it. However, I'd like it in writing.


John Sukey said:
Just in passing, there ain't no such animule as a .45ACP Webley. There are Webleys where the arse end of the cylinder has been buggered so you can use moon clips and .45ACP rounds, but the revolver is NOT chambered for that round. As a matter of fact, the 455 case is larger in diameter than a .45ACP case.
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True, however if the cylinder is well cut the 45 acp case mouth can headspace on the end of the chamber cut. I think Dingus was referring to colt SAA's specifically, as I understand most webley revolvers have a more generous chamber and utilise the star ejector, hence needing the moon clips to A) stop the cartridge from slipping down the chamber and B) help the ejection.

But yes, true, the standard webley Mk1-Mk___ where chambered for .455.
 
John Sukey said:
Just in passing, there ain't no such animule as a .45ACP Webley. There are Webleys where the arse end of the cylinder has been buggered so you can use moon clips and .45ACP rounds, but the revolver is NOT chambered for that round. As a matter of fact, the 455 case is larger in diameter than a .45ACP case.
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Slightly off topic & I'll try not to steer this in the direction Wally does not want it to go... BUT this is where section/ part 7 tells me that said Webley has been adapted/altered for moon clips to shoot 45 acp & therefore is now classed as a restricted firearm. Am I wrong in assuming this?
 
H Wally said:
I can understand their concern over rechambering, since our society is hell bent on suing these days so often it just isn't worth the risk in doing anything out of the standard "checking headspace and fitting scope mounts".

For asking the techs and verifiers, I'm going to ask a few of them, and get it in writing. I find if they're talking out of their butt they'll refuse to provide a written statement :p We shall see.
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Well put for the gunsmiths. I'm interested in seeing what comes of the techs.
 
must be cause there are dozens and dozens of CFC issues antique letters listing make as webley and chambering as 45 acp.

Wally why bother with this. Forcing someone to make a policy decision is a bad way to go about keeping the status quo.

As to the finding a smith. No gunsmith in thier right mind would rechamber a 9000 psi revolver for a modern commercial cartridge which is available in higher pressure loads on the shelf out front!
It aint about you and the gunsmith it is about the next guy that ends up with the gun he worked on.
Let sleeping dogs lie and if you really need to rechamber a reamer is about 100 bucks IIRC and a T-handle is 20 ish. Do it yourself.
 
DANCESWITHEMPTIES said:
Slightly off topic & I'll try not to steer this in the direction Wally does not want it to go... BUT this is where section/ part 7 tells me that said Webley has been adapted/altered for moon clips to shoot 45 acp & therefore is now classed as a restricted firearm. Am I wrong in assuming this?
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The reference to "adapted" only refers to being adapted or altered to shoot the no go calibers. There's nothing referring to altering to a non-listed caliber (such as 45 acp)


david doyle said:
must be cause there are dozens and dozens of CFC issues antique letters listing make as webley and chambering as 45 acp.

Wally why bother with this. Forcing someone to make a policy decision is a bad way to go about keeping the status quo.

Partially true, I'm not going to force an official decision, I'm just concerned that they're quietly trying to limit the antique laws by changing policy over what they can be chambered in (beyond the listed no-go calibers).

A parallel to this is how it is not a law that you need a range membership to transfer a restricted firearm into your name or get an ATT, yet they won't transfer without it. My fear is that they're trying to quietly attack antique laws. By asking the techs/verifiers I can find out if this is what they're doing without forcing a ruling.

As to the finding a smith. No gunsmith in thier right mind would rechamber a 9000 psi revolver for a modern commercial cartridge which is available in higher pressure loads on the shelf out front!
It aint about you and the gunsmith it is about the next guy that ends up with the gun he worked on.
Let sleeping dogs lie and if you really need to rechamber a reamer is about 100 bucks IIRC and a T-handle is 20 ish. Do it yourself.
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I'm familiar with that - a couple posts up I said that it's a "cover your butt" thing for gunsmiths. This isn't what the question was about, and I deliberately limited the scope of the topic to avoid being diverted by other (valid but irrelevant) subjects. The gun will actually be chambered in its original caliber anyways (44 russian). The point is now, my curiosity has been aroused and I'm trying to find some answers.
 
H Wally said:
Starting this thread because I've run into this repeatedly recently and it's confusing me.

Having talked to several very knowledgeable and respectable gunsmiths I keep getting the same answer: Rechambering antique handguns to a modern caliber will make them restricted/prohib.

None will explain this or avoid answering, and C-68's antique law only stipulates that handgun must be pre-1898 and not in X Y Z calibers.
snip...
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The old rules said that, C.68 actually spelled out what antiques are deregisterable.
The old law simply said words to the effect of "antiques are chambered in cartridges which are not commonly available" this kind of left it open ended, how do you define how available a cartridge is?
 
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