Load and Make ready question....

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nighthawk

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Talked to my friend shooting 'Standard division' and he mentioned this.

When asked to 'load and make ready', he pulled out his spare magazine from his pants pocket and loaded this into his pistol. At this point, he was told he was bumped up to "Open Division" as the first magazine has to be from the belt (thought this was only after the buzzer goes off !) .

I could not find this rule anywhere. Does this rule exist before and does it exist right now ?

thanks for the help.
 
What shooting game? I believe there's a process to challenge decisions like that. Afterwards. One does not argue with the RO on his range.
 
Was it his front pants pocket?(all mags must be behind the hips) If so then yes he would be in open division. If it was his back pocket I personally don't see the issue.
 
I just finished the RO course. If load and make ready is given, then the competitor may precharge the gun (place a bullet in the chamber) eject the mag, and then put the 'stripper' mag back in his pocket, select another mag from his belt (mag behind hip bone) and insert it into the gun.

This does not place him into open division at all. (provided the stripper mag is placed in your BACK pocket)


The RO should go back and re-read his red book. Charge mags are allowed in ALL classes
 
Rule 6.2.5.1 states that:
"However, if a competitor fails to satisfy the equipment or other requirements of a declared Division during a course of fire, the competitor will be placed in Open Division..."

From what you've said, it appears your friend got bumped up for the right reason, maybe prematurely. But perhaps this could have been avoided altogether.
Here's how I understand it:

The equipment requirements for Standard Div. are in Appendix D2, Special Condition 17:

"Neither the handgun....nor the holster, nor any allied equipment, can extend forward of the line illustrated in Appendix F3. Any such items that a Range Officer deems not to be in compliance must be safely and promptly adjusted, failing which Rule 6.2.5.1 will apply." 6.2.5.1 is what bumps a guy into Open.

Appendix F3 shows that all equipment must be stored behind an imaginary vertical line drawn through the hipbone.

Under rule 8.3.1 a course of fire starts at the moment the RO utters "Load and Make Ready". This is when your friend unpocketed his first mag and pushed it into his still-holstered HG's grip. That 'technique' in itself is highly unusual, but not necessarily against the (safety) rules so long as the thumb safety was not flipped off.

Do you know if your friend then unholstered to rack the slide and load the chamber? And then did he swap out the 'pocket' mag for a full one from his belt? Where did the pocket mag then end up? Did he finally re-holster the now-charged gun with the safety applied?

I believe the RO could have legally given your friend the opportunity to put the 'pocket' or 'Barney' mag into his back pocket or in a pocket such as found on carpenter's pants - the ones with the mid-seam cellphone pocket. After all, rule 17 states that "Any such items that a Range Officer deems not to be in compliance must be safely and promptly adjusted." This implies that so long as the Stand-by command has not been issued, the RO can quite properly question or comment on the competitor's equipment layout, whereupon the competitor can safely and promptly adjust said deficiency. Shoving the guilty mag from the front to a back pocket would have solved that and your friend would have been started and scored in Standard Div. No harm done, no undue advantage to the competitor.

Did this dialogue take place?
 
colecreek said:
Rule 6.2.5.1 states that:
"However, if a competitor fails to satisfy the equipment or other requirements of a declared Division during a course of fire, the competitor will be placed in Open Division..."

From what you've said, it appears your friend got bumped up for the right reason, maybe prematurely. But perhaps this could have been avoided altogether.
Here's how I understand it:

Under rule 8.3.1 a course of fire starts at the moment the RO utters "Load and Make Ready". This is when your friend unpocketed his first mag and pushed it into his still-holstered HG's grip. That 'technique' in itself is highly unusual, but not necessarily against the (safety) rules so long as the thumb safety was not flipped off.

Do you know if your friend then unholstered to rack the slide and load the chamber? And then did he swap out the 'pocket' mag for a full one from his belt? Where did the pocket mag then end up? Did he finally re-holster the now-charged gun with the safety applied?
Click to expand...

I am switching from Open to Standard this year. While in 'Open' I've always used the extra magazine in my front pocket as my first mag. I thought this was okay as the course of fire has not started yet. In your quote of the rules, 8.3.1, the COF starts at "Load and Make ready". this would have made sense.

I did not clarify if he had taken the mag out and 'topped off' the mag or if he ejected the magazine and put it in his pocket. If this was the case, would it have mattered ?

Got Juice said as long as the magazine was in the back pocket at the start, it wouldn't matter... If the COF starts at "Load and make ready" wasn't there a rule that says you have to draw from your magazine pouch first ?

keep it coming and thanks in advance guys.
 
Thank you Raks ! I've printed the post by Vince to put this issue to rest should it come up.

I've loaded from the front pocket in USPSA with no problem. Of course, USPSA allows mags in front of the hip bone for Limited Division.
 
If he pulled the mag from his ass or rear pocket or from his front pocket then the RO is right its open. In standard all mags must be on the hip, not in the front or in the rear. Thats how i was taught anyhow.
 
Raks is correct. so a shooter comes up to the line with a bullet in his teeth or his shirt pocket would he get bumped to open? No. this is covered in the RO course (or should be.) Once the shooter is loaded then the rule comes into effect.
 
Okay, separate issue....

Guy reaches for a magazine from his back pocket. His pocket is pretty baggy, and the magazine sits way down in there. It's more than 5cm away from his torso.

What's the call? Even Open division specifies that the mags may be no more than 5cm away from the torso.
 
hungrybeagle said:
Okay, separate issue....

Guy reaches for a magazine from his back pocket. His pocket is pretty baggy, and the magazine sits way down in there. It's more than 5cm away from his torso.

What's the call? Even Open division specifies that the mags may be no more than 5cm away from the torso.
Click to expand...

From Vince Pinto's post, it doesn't matter where the magazine was pulled out from - as long as the buzzer HAS NOT gone off yet. The magazine could be in his socks and it still won't matter. Here is what Vince said in that post....

The critical point is indeed at the Start Signal, which is precisely why, for example, the PD 15 round rule applies then. This allows you to have your first mag loaded with 16 rounds for chamber loaded starts, for the purpose of expediting the LAMR process.

What do you do when a competitor in PD comes to the line with his holster too far forward? Do you (a) immediately bump him to Open, or (b) do you ask him to adjust the position of his holster? If your answer is (a), I'm coming over there to take away all your croissant!

By the same token, if a competitor comes to the line with a mag in his front pocket or in his hand or in his mouth, the RO must deem (under Point 18), whether or not the competitor is in breach of the applicable divisional rules. Now if the "illegally placed" mag is used solely for loading purposes, what's the problem?
 
GunGuy34 said:
If he pulled the mag from his ass or rear pocket or from his front pocket then the RO is right its open. In standard all mags must be on the hip, not in the front or in the rear. Thats how i was taught anyhow.
Click to expand...

Here is a reprint of the original reply of Vince Pinto.

Your "Range Officer" was incorrect. Keeping a magazine in your rear pocket is not an infraction. Rule 5.2.4 gives an advisory "should", not a mandatory "must", about retention devices.

Your rear pocket is also likely to be compliant with Rule 5.2.5 et al in respect of the 50mm distance from torso.

Moreover, having a magazine temporarily placed in your front pocket in order to facilitate the LAMR process is also not an infraction. However, if it was there after the Start Signal, that would be a different story.

Afterwards to clarify a question where a person asked 'did I miss something ?" Vince said "You did...

"I then insert the full mag from my front pocket and holster the pistol."
In other words, he only used the mag from his front pocket for loading, not after the Start Signal.
 
NROI Website

found this on the FAQ of the NROI Canada website ...


If competitor in Standard or Production division retrieves a magazine from their front pocket after the "Load and Make Ready" command will they automatically be moved into Open Division?

•No, a competitor will not be moved into open division under theses circumstances. When the timer starts the competitors equipment must comply with division rules and regulations.

That puts the whole issue to rest. Thank you gentlemen, specially to raks for pointing us in the right direction. Happy shooting everyone !
 
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