You guys are right .Using the fed clone wad in the straight wall hull is going to give a better seal for sure than the cb1118. I was putting 19.8 grains ( measured) of 700x in mine, no.34 bushing.
Anybody reload Win Super Target or Universals?
- Thread starter ninepointer
- Start date
You guys are right .Using the fed clone wad in the straight wall hull is going to give a better seal for sure than the cb1118. I was putting 19.8 grains ( measured) of 700x in mine, no.34 bushing.
The CB6100-12 is for 1 oz loads in straight-walled cases too, but it looks different than a 12S0 wad. It's more similar in form to Winchester wads and performs well. Nothing against the 12S0 wad of course, I just ran into the CB6100-12 and tried a couple of bags out.
The boys don't like them here Fred. They like the neon green color but say they get a lot of poppers with them in the cold weather and when they chrono the reloads with them the speeds are all over the place. They think they don't seal as well as the 12s0 which is causing what they are experiencing.
I like the neon green colour too, but that's a good point about performance in cold weather. I've shot off about 250 of the ones I have, but it was last fall before the cold weather set in. So, temperatures wouldn't be colder than 10 degrees C or so and I didn't see any poppers. Disappointing that they haven't worked out. There's little doubt in my mind that the quality of the seal matters. In fact, I have been thinking about measuring interior diameter and wall thickness of some of the cases I have to get some idea about this. The Super Target and Kent shells appear to have pretty thin walls to me, while I think Top Gun might be thicker etc. Time to measure and put it to rest I guess...
ninepointer
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- Central Ontario
I too use the Gold Medal target data for the Federal promos. I only pick up my Fed promos under dry conditions and I toss 'em after one reload. They crimp nicely and, if not for the paper basewads, I would probably reload them more than once.
I consider myself a "by the book" reloader, but there is enough long established, consistent information out there about acceptable substitutions. I'm talking target recipes only, not high-power long-range pheasant load recipes where the margins are tighter.
Naturally I don't expect ammo manufacturer's lawyers to sign off on anything; Why would they?
Back in the winter when I bought my Lee Loader I also bought Lyman's Shotshell reloading Handbook 5th edition. It has a good starting assortment of load data, showing lots of different recipes of hull A, primer B, powder C, wad D (where ABCD are different manufacturer's). Another very nice feature, is near the front there is a full colour, hull ID section. I am glade that I bought the book for that section alone.
Now I don't know if Ninepointer is using 2 3/4" or 3" hulls but, for 20ga 2 3/4" hull there is a notation saying "Loading data for the 20 gauge Winchester HS case will interchange with the 20 gauge Winchester compression formed case".
Power to you! I am a by the book loader. There is no published data for the hulls and the manufacture does not recomend that they be reloaded. That's good enough reason for me not to. There is lots of stuff out there that I can find data for.
If you do a little looking you will find published data on these using AA data.
After 45 years of loading without an incident I am very confident of my ability.
If you are not then do as you are doing.
However if your books do not show this there may be data outside of your books and with a lack of that information cause some answers given out that are just not true.
Don
After 45 years of loading without an incident I am very confident of my ability.
If you are not then do as you are doing.
However if your books do not show this there may be data outside of your books and with a lack of that information cause some answers given out that are just not true.
Don
Don If you have been reloading 45 years you know quite well your ability has nothing to do with it. Once you start playing with your reloads and reloading other than published, proven and tested data you are looking for trouble and you are smart enough to know that. I have only been loading from 410 to 10ga for 40 years and if I cannot find it published in a proven manual I don't touch it. Remember not all hulls are made to be reloaded and we are dealing with some real junk here that look like winchester polyformed hulls but they are really a cheaper version.I bet your experience is with the original polyformed and not these.These are so weak they crush in a progressive machine, regardless how many times you set it.
It is quite simple, it is not if you screw up it is when you screw up and we all do at some time, how far was the safety zone pushed. I am loading some 10ga steel today in fact so sensitive I cannot trust the drop bars, bushings etc and have to weigh every piece seperately.
A couple of grains here extra in any component and I have pressures my gun cannot take.
Take care and continue to reload safely
Last edited:
dcan,
It has nothing to do with confidence or ability.
If I cannot find it published in a proven manual I will not suggest it is OK for others. If your books show or have some information that will prove the above statement you made bold, most of are here to help or learn. If you actually have such data please produce it for all to see. I have been loading for at least as long as you have and it will not be the first time that I have been in error.
Check this link to hodgdon as they make the powder I would trust them.
http://data.hodgdon.com/
Just go to the Reloading section and pick the shotshell data.
We have been loading these hulls as they are throwaways and there fore cheap but perfectly safe.
I would hesitate to give a number as we have loaded many many of these and would not want to upset the apple cart any more.
All my reloads go through a mec sizer and then to a PW900 that has been updated with parts from PW and also the parts made by Whiz White from ND.
After I have set my machine I have had ZERO problems.
I have cut apart AA's and Super Targets not much diffrence check for yourself
I am amazed at some of you. Most of the hew and cry through out the trap reloaders is with the AA's throwing the base wads. And many US loaders will not load Winchester anything.
If we want to get technical about the ony hull that is safe is the Remington series that is still a formed case. The whole series of Trap Shells right down to the Gun Clubs share the same loading data.
Gun clubs have a metal base and should go through a super sizer before being reloaded.
OK now should we argue about reloaders or 7 1/2 or 8's just to make it interesting?
Don
http://data.hodgdon.com/
Just go to the Reloading section and pick the shotshell data.
We have been loading these hulls as they are throwaways and there fore cheap but perfectly safe.
I would hesitate to give a number as we have loaded many many of these and would not want to upset the apple cart any more.
All my reloads go through a mec sizer and then to a PW900 that has been updated with parts from PW and also the parts made by Whiz White from ND.
After I have set my machine I have had ZERO problems.
I have cut apart AA's and Super Targets not much diffrence check for yourself
I am amazed at some of you. Most of the hew and cry through out the trap reloaders is with the AA's throwing the base wads. And many US loaders will not load Winchester anything.
If we want to get technical about the ony hull that is safe is the Remington series that is still a formed case. The whole series of Trap Shells right down to the Gun Clubs share the same loading data.
Gun clubs have a metal base and should go through a super sizer before being reloaded.
OK now should we argue about reloaders or 7 1/2 or 8's just to make it interesting?
Don
3macs1 ability and experience go hand in hand.
Yes I have the years of reloading I have stated and do not do stupid things.
We are talking trap loads here not high performance game loads.
Pressures are below 10000 and mostly below 8000 check Internet sources as the books become out of date very quickly.
All of the Powder Mfgs and also Load Data have listings using the Super Target type of hull.
Winchester at one time disclaimed the AA's from being reloaded also.
When I have some more time I will look up more info on these and post it here.
Don
Yes I have the years of reloading I have stated and do not do stupid things.
We are talking trap loads here not high performance game loads.
Pressures are below 10000 and mostly below 8000 check Internet sources as the books become out of date very quickly.
All of the Powder Mfgs and also Load Data have listings using the Super Target type of hull.
Winchester at one time disclaimed the AA's from being reloaded also.
When I have some more time I will look up more info on these and post it here.
Don
Don by posting that Hodgdon link you have just proved exactly what I was trying to tell you in my earlier post. That polyformed winchester hull is for Win game shells and not the same polyformed that comes with the super target or universal hulls.There is a white vs red base wad, one base wad is flat and one is oval , there is a different thickness of the hull wall and there is a 12% difference in internal volume.If you are not crushing hulls and getting good crimps in a progressive on these target style you are the only one.
So no you donot have a published approved load for a polyformed winchester target or universal load.You are saying because it is under 10,000 it is OK. How do you know that??
You say you have experience then I will ask why place good components in a hull that you know will not give you the performance a compression formed will.That volume diff alone will drop speed over 100 fps on crono.I can still buy original win one piece compression formed 12ga here for 5-7 cents each. Is it worth a stuck base wad and yes that does happen. If you have not seen one keep reloading and shooting trash hulls and you will. I am not posting to attack you just trying to help you keep your fingers for the sake of saving a few pennies on hulls.. Too much trash out there now in hulls to experiment with.Kind Regards
For me right or wrong in the mind of guys that reload these I will listen to winchester and not load this crap
Last edited:
Another factor to consider is the origin of the promo hulls. I know historically Winchester has subcontracted their cheaper shell lines and it is possible the hulls are not consistent from lot to lot.
It doesn't matter how much experience you have it isn't a good idea to recommend loads unless they are published.
It doesn't matter how much experience you have it isn't a good idea to recommend loads unless they are published.
Just off the phone with Mike, from the Hodgdon's help line. I asked for data for Winchester Super Target and Winchester Universal. He said "Hodgdon had not developed any loading data for those hulls". I asked if they were safe to load and he said "Don't know because Hodgdon has not developed loads for those hulls". When I suggested that there were lots of them around, he said that they were not a good hull partly because of the steel head and that is why there is lots of them around.
From this conversatiion I have not concluded that these hulls are not safe. I have concluded that there is no reliable published loading data for these hulls. I will not load them and more important I will never tell anyone they are OK to load.
From this conversatiion I have not concluded that these hulls are not safe. I have concluded that there is no reliable published loading data for these hulls. I will not load them and more important I will never tell anyone they are OK to load.
Well I guess I am wrong and stand corrected.
However as I have loaded these for the last 7 years I will continue to do so along with many of my fellow shooters here.
Steel bases are found on many of the hulls and a Mec Super Sizer takes care of this before the reloading process again I will continue.
Good shooting in the upcoming year.
Don
However as I have loaded these for the last 7 years I will continue to do so along with many of my fellow shooters here.
Steel bases are found on many of the hulls and a Mec Super Sizer takes care of this before the reloading process again I will continue.
Good shooting in the upcoming year.
Don
HI Don:
Na not wrong just never looked deep enough into it. You are loading data for one winchester polyformed style into one with larger volume.
Would be interesting to see if indeed the speed has dropped by at least 100fps over the published and I bet the pattern is not good on paper.Me I would still never shoot a polyformed even with published data in a semi or pump just incase the base decided to come lose.
Seems today few manufacturers care about quality and will do anything to save a penny.
At one time what you see was what you got, today the rules have changed and sometimes we have to take some extra time to look deeper just to make sure.Take care
Like this example
Have to admit to being fooled by both topics under discussion here. It's perfectly clear to me that in one the guy is in the wrong bathroom (On the other hand, it could be the right one too...depends on age, gender or perception maybe.). In the other discussion, I have to admit that I have loaded many of the cheapie Winchester cases without a problem after a bit of setting up. I never had any trouble with them, though my PW press did a better job on the crimping. Recently, I quit loading them because there is just no need. One can pick any number of AAHS hulls without too much effort.
