PDW Cartridges

Kinetic energy means nothing in and of itself. Comparing wound profiles is necessary to evaluate terminal effect.

Lightweight varmint bullets likely will not provide adequate penetration; 12" in 10% gelatin is a minimum. These same types of bullets are not suitable for anti-personnel use out of 5.56mm, either.
 
tjhaile said:
Kinetic energy means nothing in and of itself. Comparing wound profiles is necessary to evaluate terminal effect.

Lightweight varmint bullets likely will not provide adequate penetration; 12" in 10% gelatin is a minimum. These same types of bullets are not suitable for anti-personnel use out of 5.56mm, either.
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And bigger bullets at lower velocity seem to hit harder, regardless of what the KE says. It is a very complicated problem with no easy answers, but I do have to say that I would not want to trust my life to the "stopping power" of the small PDW cartridges.


Mark
 
Kevin,

Why did KAC choose the 65gr bullet in their 6x35 instead of something heavier? This was always going to be a short range cartridge so trajectory shouldn't be an issue. One would think the longer, heavier bullets would produce a better wound track.

I just got some 87gr VMax to try in my PDW cartridge project. Mostly cause they will allow a longer loaded length to help feeding from the AR mag.
 
Again, Kevin is right. I have not seen the pics, but word from British Special Forces Group, tasked with testing the P90 and five-seven in the field, asked for their L-105s and L-119s back as the higher ammo capacity was not the balm they had hoped for. In fact they spent more ammo weight doing the same job as the older issue weapons.

So yeah, the round will defeat CRISAT & I haven't really heard about how it does against the newer Lvl IV SA/MS stuff, but what bloody good is it if you shoot him, he damn well kills you and then dies later?
 
You could always ask the body armor wearing terrorists who held the Japanese Embassy captive in Lima Peru how effective the P90 was. But you'll need a medium and a classic Ouiji Board to talk to them... Take out kinetic energy, terminal wound ballistics, gelatin tests, minimum penetration depths, caliber, and velocity and what comes down to effective is shot placement and the ability to put multiple shots into the BG very Quickly. For myself, i'm faster and more accurate with the very controllable 5.7 round running through a P90 carbine. It would be my choice for deployment within the 200 meter range it was designed for.
 
stormtrooper1015 said:
You could always ask the body armor wearing terrorists who held the Japanese Embassy captive in Lima Peru how effective the P90 was. But you'll need a medium and a classic Ouiji Board to talk to them... Take out kinetic energy, terminal wound ballistics, gelatin tests, minimum penetration depths, caliber, and velocity and what comes down to effective is shot placement and the ability to put multiple shots into the BG very Quickly. For myself, i'm faster and more accurate with the very controllable 5.7 round running through a P90 carbine. It would be my choice for deployment within the 200 meter range it was designed for.
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I highly doubt they had hard armor plates most likely Level II or Level IIIA soft body armor which means level II is easily defeated by 9mm Ball from a handgun if Level IIIA which could be easily defaeted by using a 9 MM SMG . I am probaly just as fast and as accurate using a M4, AK74 or a MP 5. and yet these rounds will do more damage and incapictate your opponent a lot quicker with out any second thoughts about the terminal performance
 
I highly doubt they had hard armor plates most likely Level II or Level IIIA soft body armor which means level II is easily defeated by 9mm Ball from a handgun if Level IIIA which could be easily defaeted by using a 9 MM SMG
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Level IIIA would NOT be defeated by a 9mm anything.

When I tested a level IIA vest I was only able to get one specific combination of conventional 9mm ammo to penetrate the vest. That was the IVI 124gr ammo fired out of an SMG. In this case the IVI stuff is just fast enough and just pointy enough to penetrate the vest. Everything else 9mm is easily stopped by level IIA.

While IVI is available it is hardly common and it needs the extra velocity generated by a long SMG barrel and to be fired at very close range in order to penetrate the vest.


I am probaly just as fast and as accurate using a M4, AK74 or a MP 5. and yet these rounds will do more damage and incapictate your opponent a lot quicker with out any second thoughts about the terminal performance
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A full sized AK or M4 hardly falls into the PDW category. Having to hump a full sized assault rifle around is a PIA, hence the need for small, compact PDW type weapons.

The MP5, being 9mm won't penetrate level IIA body armour and suffers from a crap trajectory and reduced performance at any kind of distance.
 
Suputin said:
Level IIIA would NOT be defeated by a 9mm anything.

When I tested a level IIA vest I was only able to get one specific combination of conventional 9mm ammo to penetrate the vest. That was the IVI 124gr ammo fired out of an SMG. In this case the IVI stuff is just fast enough and just pointy enough to penetrate the vest. Everything else 9mm is easily stopped by level IIA.

While IVI is available it is hardly common and it needs the extra velocity generated by a long SMG barrel and to be fired at very close range in order to penetrate the vest.

A full sized AK or M4 hardly falls into the PDW category. Having to hump a full sized assault rifle around is a PIA, hence the need for small, compact PDW type weapons.

The MP5, being 9mm won't penetrate level IIA body armour and suffers from a crap trajectory and reduced performance at any kind of distance.
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The Russian 7N21 and 7N31 9mm rounds appear to be very capable vs body armor, at least at short ranges.
 
This may get complicated as I do not know much about armour and its capabilities.
Would a hit on armour from a 250gr(450 Bushmasster) or the 365gr FMJ (458 SOCOM) round not put one down regardless of penetration? with repeated hits would armour fail and penetration be achived? Maybe this is over simplified but is defeating armour realy that nessicary when the energy from these heavy bullets are delivered on target? The PDW role in my mind is to down an agressor or threat to your detail...though death to these threats is obviously better you are only buying time to evacuate to cover(armoured vehicle,building etc..). I guess in short are these heavy hitters better than the smaller seemingly underpowered in the discussion now?
 
Well, I remember reading that a 12 gauge slug will kill even through armour, regardless of penetration (or the lack thereof)... But that's a lot of recoil for a small, "handy" firearm.
 
Bark and bite for both parties involved LOL. I have shot the .458 and it has some recoil but totally manageble with good break on rifle. Full auto though would be a bit harsh though...Maybe burst fire (3shot) revived???
 
Suputin said:
Those are 9mm rifle rounds.

I guess maybe I should have been more specific and said "9mm P"
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no they are pistol as well i could be wrong though... (from wiki)

The 7N21 (Cyrillic: 7Н21) 9x19 mm overpressure variant features an armour piercing bullet and generates a claimed peak pressure of 280 MPa (40,611 psi).[26] The 7N21 bullet features a hardened (sub-caliber) steel penetrator core, enclosed by a bimetal jacket. The space between the core and jacket is filled with polyethylene, and the tip of the penetrator is exposed at the front of the bullet, to achieve better penetration. The MP-443 Grach and GSh-18 pistols and PP-19-01, PP-90M1 and PP-2000 submachine guns were designed for usage with this overpressure cartridge. Jane's Infantry Weapons stated in 2003 that the 7N21 cartridge combines the 9x19mm Parabellum dimensions with a 9x21mm Gyurza bullet design and was developed specifically for the penetration of body armour and for the MP-443 Grach pistol, the latest Russian service pistol.[27]

The 7N31 (Cyrillic: 7Н31) 9x19mm overpressure variant uses the same concept with a similar but lighter bullet that achieves higher muzzle velocity. The 7N31 cartridge was developed in the late 1990s for the GSh-18 pistol. The 7N31 was also adopted for the PP-90M1 and PP-2000 submachine guns. Its maximum service pressure remains unclear.
 
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