PDW Cartridges

Savage said:
They are for the Russan Stechkin pistol
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The Stechkin is an older design and is chambered for the 9x18 Mak, while the 7N21 and 7N31 rounds are 9x19 and relatively new, as are the guns designed to safely handle them.
 
Many 9mm designs will penetrate IIIA Armor -- however non I am aware of will have any terminal effects in soft tissue beyond a 9mm (or smaller) hole, which is the rub.

The PDW system needs to be a effective round, that can reach out to AK distances (300m).

It should not be (IMHO) a handgun round, or a round just based on soft armor penetration. There needs to be a balance, of controlability, muzzle flash and blast (this is a short barrel system), terminal and soft armor penetration, accuracy and minimal bullet drop (less than 18" at 300m from muzzle).

Tough chore.
 
KevinB said:
I've got some rather disturbing images of the results of 5.7 and 4.6 bullets failures to stop in Afghan. They are close in headshot bullets, or you need to bullethose the target, and still don't get immediate incapicitation.
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A SS190 round is essentially a super light varmint round reaching the 300m mark at the muzzle of a P90....without the HP construction.

The question is, will you shoot a varmint round at enemies from 300m and up?

People are talking about using 5.7 out to 200m - will you shoot someone at 500m with a 45gr varmint round?
 
heckler said:
This may get complicated as I do not know much about armour and its capabilities.
Would a hit on armour from a 250gr(450 Bushmasster) or the 365gr FMJ (458 SOCOM) round not put one down regardless of penetration? with repeated hits would armour fail and penetration be achived? Maybe this is over simplified but is defeating armour realy that nessicary when the energy from these heavy bullets are delivered on target? The PDW role in my mind is to down an agressor or threat to your detail...though death to these threats is obviously better you are only buying time to evacuate to cover(armoured vehicle,building etc..). I guess in short are these heavy hitters better than the smaller seemingly underpowered in the discussion now?
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Hold a steel plate over your chest and have a tennis ball thrower hosed your down with balls - you may get knocked over on your butt but you are not going to die.
 
good annalogy...I havn't researched armour to know its limits,just thought a hit from one of these (450 or 458) would definatly plant you with the tremendous amt. of energy they deliver. They definatly cover the 0-250m.range with ease.
 
Agent Law said:
Energy transfer isn't going to kill you, unless the energy is being transferred via explosion.
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No, it is about where energy is transferred to, and how it is transferred and transformed -

Also, different types of armours have differenct mechanisms of transforming the energy of the projectile.
 
KevinB said:
Many 9mm designs will penetrate IIIA Armor -- however non I am aware of will have any terminal effects in soft tissue beyond a 9mm (or smaller) hole, which is the rub.

The PDW system needs to be a effective round, that can reach out to AK distances (300m).

It should not be (IMHO) a handgun round, or a round just based on soft armor penetration. There needs to be a balance, of controlability, muzzle flash and blast (this is a short barrel system), terminal and soft armor penetration, accuracy and minimal bullet drop (less than 18" at 300m from muzzle).

Tough chore.
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At that point you're basically talking about an assault rifle, maybe a compact one but still an assault rifle nonetheless.

IMO the whole point of the PDW concept is having something effective at closer anges, while being considerably handier than the issue assault rifle and remaining shooter friendly for folks who aren't professional infantrymen, which pretty much precludes using an intermediate round in an itty bitty weapon.

Russian style 9mm +P+ AP just makes more sense than running some proprietary PDW round or using a rifle round in what should be a compact SMG sized package.
 
So how fast does does the .300 Whisper have to go to defeat Type III? Do we have to approach 7.62x39 speeds, or is there a comfortable difference? I have no idea myself.
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I am not specifically acquainted with the properties of level IIIA but I did test subsonic .30 cal against a level IIA. The 150gr subsonic rifle bullet we tested blew through both sides of the level IIA vest (42 layers of kevlar) plus the 2x4 we had attached the vest to. Subsonic rifle bullets have an amazing ability to penetrate kevlar. I am fairly certain it would take hard plates to stop a subsonic .30 cal.


The 7N21 (Cyrillic: 7Đť21) 9x19 mm overpressure variant features an armour piercing bullet and generates a claimed peak pressure of 280 MPa (40,611 psi).[26] The 7N21 bullet features a hardened (sub-caliber) steel penetrator core, enclosed by a bimetal jacket. The space between the core and jacket is filled with polyethylene, and the tip of the penetrator is exposed at the front of the bullet, to achieve better penetration. The MP-443 Grach and GSh-18 pistols and PP-19-01, PP-90M1 and PP-2000 submachine guns were designed for usage with this overpressure cartridge. Jane's Infantry Weapons stated in 2003 that the 7N21 cartridge combines the 9x19mm Parabellum dimensions with a 9x21mm Gyurza bullet design and was developed specifically for the penetration of body armour and for the MP-443 Grach pistol, the latest Russian service pistol.[27]

The 7N31 (Cyrillic: 7Đť31) 9x19mm overpressure variant uses the same concept with a similar but lighter bullet that achieves higher muzzle velocity. The 7N31 cartridge was developed in the late 1990s for the GSh-18 pistol. The 7N31 was also adopted for the PP-90M1 and PP-2000 submachine guns. Its maximum service pressure remains unclear.
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Sorry, I thought you were refering to the 9x39 round.

Either way those rounds you describe are hardly commonly available in this country. They would also be classed as a prohibited ammunition like the THV so the point would be pretty much moot.
 
Would a hit on armour from a 250gr(450 Bushmasster) or the 365gr FMJ (458 SOCOM) round not put one down regardless of penetration?
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No. Equal and opposite reaction. If the bullet had enough energy to knock down a person then the guy firing the gun would also get knocked down

with repeated hits would armour fail and penetration be achived?
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Possibly but the hits have to be nearly one on top of the other which is difficult to do in a live situation.

Maybe this is over simplified but is defeating armour realy that nessicary when the energy from these heavy bullets are delivered on target?
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Yes. Do you really want to take the chance that a non-lethal hit is going to put someone down and keep them down? Remember you are putting your life on the line here.


Well, I remember reading that a 12 gauge slug will kill even through armour, regardless of penetration (or the lack thereof)... But that's a lot of recoil for a small, "handy" firearm.
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It is called blunt force trauma. It would be akin to hitting someone in the chest with a baseball bat. Blunt force trauma can take time to incapacitate a person. Time during which they will be alive and quite pissed off at you.
 
greentips, that video was awesome!
i can't believe i haven't seen it before, talk about faith in the product, i don't ever want to be standing a yard away from a guy shoot a 308 at me...
 
so i guess there is too schools of thought with regard to these types of cartidges?

small light fast high penetration round (4.6mm, 5.7mm, 9mm +p+)

Or the relaively slow heavier bullet loads optimized for shortbarrel carbines (9x39, or .300 whisper, kac 6.5 although this one is not really slow or heavy...)

I guess it really comes down to intended use. Is it a pdw that will simply replace a regular combat pistol (ala scorpion or the B&T MP9) ? or is it a stand in for a compact assault rifle that would be more easily concealed and carried in say a vehicle? (KAC PDW, Suputin's bufferless ar gun) And then once you establish that you can more easily narrow down what type of cartidge is optimal.

That said if i could get a kac pdw or a suputin bufferless ar in .300 whisper i'd be a happy camper. Suputin: hint hint ;)
 
Interesting video,thanks...kinda answered my question. I did however find that there are armour piercing bullets avail. for the .458 Don,t know how to post the vid.but its on youtube and the results on all they tested were impressive to say the least. Thanks for the answers everyone
 
870P said:
At that point you're basically talking about an assault rifle, maybe a compact one but still an assault rifle nonetheless.

IMO the whole point of the PDW concept is having something effective at closer anges, while being considerably handier than the issue assault rifle and remaining shooter friendly for folks who aren't professional infantrymen, which pretty much precludes using an intermediate round in an itty bitty weapon.

Russian style 9mm +P+ AP just makes more sense than running some proprietary PDW round or using a rifle round in what should be a compact SMG sized package.
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Dude if you see the szie of our PDW its not big...

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KevinB said:
Dude if you see the szie of our PDW its not big...
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Not it's not, and I'll admit that it's neat, however it uses a proprietary round and IMO is still big enough that many will find excuses not to carry it or have it stowed awkwardly when the "fun" starts.

Or they'll just carry a compact rifle.
 
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