First range trip with 6mm PPC Now with photos

Yeaaaaaaaaaaa, I am dug out of the white stuff.

Jerry it is as Rick said. All calibers will get pushed around by the wind. Even the big heavies at the short distances of 100/200 yards. It does not take much wind or a change in direction to make that group in the mid .1's turn into one in the high .2's.

It is of NO use to load develop or practice without the use of windflags. Even a couple will do. When you shoot over them you are giving yourself and your loading an honest effort.

The targets below are an example.

In the first target the left group at 53 clicks shows what can happen when a round is not sized quite right in comparison to the rest of the rounds. The first 2 shots basically stacked themselves on top of one another, The 3rd shot went slightly up and right. Why? The bolt closed harder on the last shot. When I pulled the trigger I was happy with what the flags were showing me. The target to the right of it shows waht happens when you miss a condition with a quick switch in direction just as I was pulling the trigger. The first 2 shots are into the same hole. The last shot went high and slightly right. I was shooting a wind that was coming from about 4:30 and it switched to 6. The shot went with the wind but it ruined a great load development group. These are just 3 shot load development groups. The same would/could happen with 5 shot groups.

The next target shows a 5 shot group on a brand new barrel I threw on my other BR rifle. For break in I fired 1 shot cleaned, fired 2 and cleaned, fired 3 and then shot the 5 shot group in the picture. I found my condition I wanted to shoot in. The first 4 shots went into a .146. I figured I had the wind right for my last shot. Just as I was pulling the trigger a slight pickup and change in angle and the last shot went up and right. It went right where it whould have according to the wind after I fired.

It is amazing how quickly you get accustomed to checking your flag position and tails when a shot goes out of the group to make sure it was the wind and not you. A good group that turned into a big juicy one.

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Rick has been at this game longer than I have and has had some pretty good shooting rifles over the years. If anyone knows how wind can hurt you he would know.

Anyone into hand loading and wanting to ring the best out of there rifles NEEDS to shoot over flags. A couple are better than none.

Calvin
 
Sako S491 6PPC USA Load Development

Fassteel said:
Is the gun you want to see or the targets from the range, my one holer that measures .110 FS

Prosper I have a Redding die set but according to my loading partner it sizes the brass to tightly so we have switched to a Hornady die, seems to size better for my chamber. Lemme know if you'd like to test it out. FS
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Fassteel,

Here is the picture of your gun.

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The 6mmPPC USA was introduced by Sako in 1987, Their brass and chamber dimensions were somewhat larger than the chambers and brass, formed, from 220 Russain, used by many BR shooters. As you brass is all Sako Factory stuff it was hard to find a die that worked. The Hornady FL die is perfect as I was able to bump the shoulder 0.0005" while shrinking the shoulder only about 0.0015 and about 0.00505 at the base. As someone had turned the necks from 0.012" to 0.009" I was able to get about 0.002" neck tension by removing the expander ball.

Here are the targets that we shot on the first day of load development.
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By the way here is the target I shot that day with my 20 EXTREME. I had thought that I would be able to get close to 204 Ruger velocities with the 40 V-Max in a 24" barrel. Lake City Brass and Ramshot Tac pushed the 40 V-Max to 3760. Amazingly the brass did not stretch ahead of the web, measured to 0.0001" with micrometer, and didn't completly fireform at the shoulder. The TAC DRIVING load, at 3730fps, is pictured below.
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prosper said:
hmm, the decapping pin on the Lee collet die gets stuck in the flash holes on my brass. Maybe I'll just drill them out a bit larger
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Don't drill out the flash holes on that Sako brass. Fasteel says that he knows you. Bring your fired brass and we will size it for you.
 
Rick and Cal, thanks for your info. that 4 rds then one out looks very familiar.

Seems like I am always rushed to get to the range and back to work so just shoot without flags. Not idea and I will make up some flags shortly. yes, there is little doubt that wind can and will push a bullet off course BUT the high BC bullets are way more forgiving at these distances.

I did pick up on some tail winds (very cold the last time out) as they froze my feet as they blew in. figured something would happen and sure enough, out the bottom of the group it went.

I was looking at the dust kicked up on the berm and was overjoyed that it would go one way one shot, then swap 180 deg and gust the other way. yes, flags are a must.

Will try again but this Shilen barrel is showing great promise with clusters right on top of each other then ooops, there goes the wind again.

anyways, this is a lot of fun and the PPC is indeed seriously accurate. got to work on my FTR stuff for the next couple of months then will swing back to the PPC after July.

Be interesting to see how much my loads change due to heat.

any rule of thumbs with the XMR8208?

Jerry
 
Jerry, I cannot tell you anything about the XBR8208. I tried it for maybe 50 rounds and put it away. I am not shooting it because I find it is much dirtier than the 133 that I shoot. Some say it is not but in my eyes it is. With 133 first patch is muddy, second is picking up what is left in the grooves, third you would never tell the rifle was fired. The Xbr has way more mud coming out for multiple patches.

I have mixed up a blend of it with another powder and I feel it burns a bit cleaner than just the XBR. Velocities are real good with a 64.5 gr Opel bullet. Powder is at the neck shoulder junction and I am just over 3400 fps with no signs of stiff bolt lift. I am not sure if I will see how much higher I can go before I get the signs that warrant stopping. I just need some time to work with the blend to see what it can do.
 
I clean after every target. There are a few guys that clean after every second target. I just cannot shoot without cleaning. It is a mental thing for me. I want to stay ahead of any possible carbon ring that may form. In saying that it would be about every 10-12 rounds.

After cleaning I shoot a fouler or 2. If the second shot goes into the first shot on the sighter I will usually go upstairs and start my group. Occasionally I may fire a third at the sighter to make sure.
 
Mystic Precision said:
any rule of thumbs with the XMR8208?

Jerry
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Current lots of XBR looks to be too slow. First lots were much better, so we are told. Can't get enough in the case with a 6PPC. Should be good with a 6BR. Hotter is better with a PPC.

For a 6PPC, VV133 or H322 with a 68 Gr flat base is the preferred Load. Fill to the base of the neck to get going. Bullet .010" or .015" engaged in the rifling. Heavy neck tension on the 133, probably about .003" of grip. 205 primers for the most part.
 
Running 68gr Berger FB and these have been shooting really well.

29.0gr of XMR8208 is just a schnick above the base of the neck. This load seems to be shooting well. Will tweak as things heat up.

Have been cleaning every 15rds or so. Kind of weird when you are used to cleaning maybe 50 to 100rds.

First shot is consistently high, then the 2nd falls into the groups - assuming the winds haven't changed.

In some respects, this has been easier to dial in AND shoot then my F class stuff. It is alot of fun to see a bullet hole get a little bit bigger on the next shot.

Appreciate the help as this is a new way of doing things.

Fun, fun, fun..

Jerry
 
Load an extra round for a fouler or sighter before going to the group. This will also help settle the rifle in the bags.

Some have reported success in having the first shot go into the group after cleaning, by using a patch of oil followed by drying patches before going to the line.

The 6PPC has a rep as being very easy to tune. You can see why it has stuck around in BR.
 
I drilled my first 3 rds 1's with shots 10, 11, and 12 from a new barrel. The first 3 rds were to get the scope on paper.

Yes, I would say it is easy to set up.

From what I have read, top shooters are pulling their barrels with less then 1000rds fired. Some as low as 600rds.

Do you see a fall off in accuracy that quickly?

Or are they just being extra cautious for competition?

Jerry
 
Mystic Precision said:
From what I have read, top shooters are pulling their barrels with less then 1000rds fired. Some as low as 600rds.

Do you see a fall off in accuracy that quickly?

Or are they just being extra cautious for competition?

Jerry
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To answer this you need to think of the context. For a top level National match in the US (150+ shooters), very few would start the weekend with a barrel over 1000 rds, if they do, it would have be a known performer that was still holding its own. There is always risk that it craters in the middle of the weekend!

For a Regional level match (around 50 shooters) you will see a few more 1000+ rd barrels showing up. Still would not be that common.

Club level matches (15-30 shooters) you will see lots of barrels with 1000+ rds through them.

Barrels can slowly taper off or suddenly pack it in. No rhyme or reason here. No hard rules in barrel life. More a question of can it deliver the goods? Once it stops being competitive then there is no coming back. Trying to stretch barrel life can be a problem in our game. The 6PPC is so good, it wall mask a barrel past its prime. We often get lulled into thinking just one more weekend!

There is no doubt the very top guys do run fresh barrels all the time. Read Boyer's book sometime (you should order it anyway, so much good stuff in there), he suggests that in his experience he never goes to a top match with a barrel over 300 rds. FYI you will shoot 200 rds in a weekend match.

For sure barrels that don't have any promise, will be pulled quickly. You should be able to find a 6PPC load by 50- 75 rds otherwise there is a problem with the barrel or the rifle to be sorted out.
 
Mystic Precision said:
All makes good sense.

I take it a barrel that will not shoot in the 1's or low 2's in good conditions is on its way out?

Jerry
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Not necessarily. BR shooters tend to look at whether a barrel will agg instead of individual groups. The 8$ fake wood trophies are handed out for aggs. An aggregate (agg) is an average of five (5) shot groups unless we are talking unlimited class. A .25" agg will win a lot of stuff at all but the biggest shoots, and sometimes at the big shoots as well. Most will take a rifle that aggs great, over one that puts the occasional wallet group together.

Now the US Nationals in 2009 in St. Louis was unusual in that the top 19/20 positions in the LV-100 all had aggs under .200" ie a bad day to have a .25" rifle. I suppose that is the direction things are going. If the winds die, and there is no condition, you will need a rifle that can agg around a flat .200 or very low 2, and know how to handle it on the bench.

On days when you have stuff blowing off the benches around you, you still need to make the bullets touch, cause for sure the guys around you will. This is really the essence of the game. The very top guys look forward to windy days, that way they know they won't end up in a "trigger pulling contest" where the hyper tuned rifles can be tough to beat.

You know you want to try it! At least we have the good sense to get under a covered firing point and off the ground....:)
 
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