9mm for hunting

[djmay71]

No- I'm not talking handguns here, I'm talking about Kel-tec's Sub2000.

Seriously considering getting this bad boy- except come fall/winter, I'd want to do hunting with it.

Now- in one thread, a user said, and a I paraphrase "sufficent to takedown a deer."
Hold on a sec- I'll find the thread.
Quoted from the thread- "No SUB-2000 reviews?"

I got mine on Dec. 23rd from Reliable Gun, 2 hours after they arrived. I've put about 300 rounds through it, it's a lot of fun to shoot. Got a little boring at the range, but it's great fun for tin cans at the local gravel pit! The gun feels deceptively solid when fired, and the accuracy is surprising. The action cycles quite cleanly, although the trigger is kinda squishy. The overall fit and finish isn't spectacular, and I'm not a fan of the only adjustment to the sights being in the front. The bore is also fairly rough, making for slightly longer cleaning times. The gun is VERY light, and there is actually a bit of felt recoil....although 9mm ain't exactly punishing. As earlier stated, it would make a great backpacking rifle and would most likely drop a deer easily....the longer barrel spits em out FAST! All in all, it's a pretty cute little "look-what-I-got!" type toy. Shoulders really well and all recoil is STRAIGHT back...you don't even lose your sighting picture. If you want something in this style, it's definately worth looking at.

Now based on this review, I would consider the Kel Tec Sub2000 for hunting.

Now here comes the legalities and moral obligations to hunting with 9mm.
I'd personally want to hunt coyote and fox 95% of the time, and maybe the odd deer.
Is it legal to hunt with 9mm?
Now after a quick PDF search of the 2011 Ontario Hunting Regulations, I didn't find anything stating an outright ban or disqualification of hunting with 9mm ammunition.

Would 9mm be sufficent?
Now- 9mm is obviously 9mm, and for comparisons sake, I've found that a .223 Rem is 5.7mm, making the 9mm an obvious 3.3mm larger. Now lets compare a .308 Win, which is 7.8mm.
This would therefore prove (although not needing proving now that I reconsider my entire post, as I'm typing to gun-nutz, who would already know this information.), that bullet diameter alone would prove to be sufficent to take down coyote/fox/ and deer. But what about power?
I hope to hear from those who have fired a 9mm handgun (which isn't a fair comparison, as rifles and handguns will deliver different muzzle energies.), just to see if factory 9mm would have sufficent power to humanely take down these creatures.

I appreciate any and all information.

 

[Scott_N]

While I'm sure a 9mm could kill a deer, it would be a terrible choice in my opinion. You used the key word already... humanely.

 

[woodchopper]

legal... I can't say but I suspect it is legal.

the key here is going to be what is the MV and what bullet

I would not hesitate to use a 357mag with 180grn XTP holow points for deer at close range.

I don't think I would use a 9mm unless I'm really close and desperate.

 

[t-star]

there used to be a "deer hunters special" made by mauser years ago in of all things 30 mauser- not the mauser rifle, but a c-96 broomhandle with a special stock and elongated barrel- special forearm too, like an arty luger- but their deer are much SMALLER; so yes, esp in something like a 9mm largo or 38 super in a destroyer carbine

 

[sherlockbonez]

Do you currently hunt?

 

[djmay71]

Do you currently hunt?

No.
So considering the replies, a 9mm would only be a viable option, if shots were to be taken in under....50 yards? 40? Correct me if my estimations are off. As well, a hunter would want to make damn sure that the shot placement was excellent, and not skewered.
Also note- that I wouldn't be hunting deer. I just threw it out as an option, because it may interest me, but currently, my only hunting interest is in predators- fox, coyote, etc.

 

[geologist]

With so many reasonably priced and readily available hunting rifles, I wouldn't hunt deer with a 9mm Parabellum unless it was an emergency.

A 30-30, 300 Savage, .303 or even a 7.62x39 can all be had in inexpensive rifles and with iron sights would be good out to 100-200 yards depending on your abilities.

YMMV.

 

[Amphibious]

9mm luger barely takes down a human at <15yrds - why would you think it's acceptable for hunting?

extremely poor choice. buy a cheap .30-30 lever gun.

 

[djmay71]

With so many reasonably priced and readily available hunting rifles, I wouldn't hunt deer with a 9mm Parabellum unless it was an emergency.

A 30-30, 300 Savage, .303 or even a 7.62x39 can all be had in inexpensive rifles and with iron sights would be good out to 100-200 yards depending on your abilities.

YMMV.

I'm sorry if I'm coming off as snarky- but your missing the point I made in my last post.
Deer would be an afterthought. I would more than consider a larger rifle (probably a 30-06) for deer. (Overkill- maybe....)

I'll reword my question: At what distance would a 9mm shot be lethal for fox and coyote? My max (correct me if I'm reality-challenged), would be 80 yards.

 

[Gunslingr]

9mm luger barely takes down a human at <15yrds - why would you think it's acceptable for hunting?

extremely poor choice. buy a cheap .30-30 lever gun.

Uh huh, you wanna stand down range and test that theory?

I do agree though, that it would be better to buy a cheap rifle in a more appropriate caliber.

 

[Amphibious]

a .223rem is considered by many the "benchmark" coyote hunting cartridge.

.223 = 1260ft.lbs @ muzzle

9mm parabellum = 345 ft.lbs @ muzzle


your game deserves better. you want to hunt varmint? get a Varmint rifle.

 

[Amphibious]

Uh huh, you wanna stand down range and test that theory?

seen more then a few 9x19 combined with human flesh. I have little faith in the capabilities of the cartridge. at my last job, in Haiti, I worked with 4 people that had been shot, one 7 times. all walking and talking. then there were the ones in Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, Kuwait, Turkey, Dom. Rep....

 

[sherlockbonez]

IF you can place a shot on a fox, it would be lethal quite a ways, BUT unless you really know your trajectory and you are confident with your equipment, I would keep it under 50.

Most varmint rifles are very accurate since the vitals on them are small. Doesn't take much to flatten a dog, providing you can hit it under field conditions.

I asked if you hunted because I have met people who are excellent shots on the range, but when you take them out and tell them to setup in the edge of a field. I come back a few hours later and they end up sitting in from of a bare oak tree, and you can see them 300 yards away moving around making noise.

I understand that coyotes are plentiful across the country, but when it's time for lead to meet flesh, it's gets a lot more tricky.

If you want to buy a Sub2000 (I want one in 40 cal too), go for it, but if you want to hunt yotes, you should look for a yote gun.

 

[sunray]

Ontario's hunting regs says any centre fire for deer. That doesn't mean every cartridge is suitable for deer. The 9mm being one. Not enough energy. Small game only. And only in municipalities that don't have the silly calibre restriction.
"...barely takes down a human at <15yrds..." Learn that on the Internet, did you?

 

[Colin]

The deer on QCI are not much bigger than a coyote.

 

[Grouse Man]

The trajectory would be lousy. Accurate range estimation would be CRITICAL. That's why varmint rounds are flat-shooting.

 

[USP]

I'm sorry if I'm coming off as snarky- but your missing the point I made in my last post.
Deer would be an afterthought. I would more than consider a larger rifle (probably a 30-06) for deer. (Overkill- maybe....)

I'll reword my question: At what distance would a 9mm shot be lethal for fox and coyote? My max (correct me if I'm reality-challenged), would be 80 yards.

Well as a new hunter the problem will solve itself. You probably wont have the skill to get close enough in range to where 9mm would be effective for fox or coyote.

If you are on a serious budget theres lots of stuff you can get that is very very cheap that will work. Or are you more interested walking around the woods with some sort of "assault looking" type gun?

I ask because I cant really see why you would pick this type of gun to hunt with.

 

[djmay71]

Well as a new hunter the problem will solve itself. You probably wont have the skill to get close enough in range to where 9mm would be effective for fox or coyote.

If you are on a serious budget theres lots of stuff you can get that is very very cheap that will work. Or are you more interested walking around the woods with some sort of "assault looking" type gun?

I ask because I cant really see why you would pick this type of gun to hunt with.

i guess i like the 'tacticool' look

thanks for putting me in my place....

at least now I know what I be a getting (er- saving up for...)

ht tp://cdn5.thefirearmsblog.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/MR1Ext.Mag-Silo.jpg

still has the 'tacticool' look i love, .223 , and best of all- non-restricted!
or something else...recommend me i suppose.

EDIT: I didn't know that picture was so huge....

 

[ATOM]

The Gold Standard requirement for deer is the .30/30 at 100 yards. If you can match that, you've got a viable deer gun.

Shooting Times ballistics tables show the .30/30 putting out about 1,200 - 1,300 ft/lb at 100 yards, depending on the load, so that's the standard to meet.

The 9mm x 19 shows 300-350 ft/lb at the muzzle and 275-300 at 50 yards. (For what it's worth, that's about equal to the .30/30 at 500 yards.)

OK, straight KE isn't always a perfect indicator, but I wouldn't consider using a 9mm Luger on deer under any circumstance outside a legitimate survival situation. That's including on an optional basis or once-in-a-while or just-because.

'Not suitable' - period. The odds of just wounding the beast and having to spend a long time wading through brush and swamp to put it out of its misery are just too high.

Fox? They're pretty delicate, all in all. I'd be tempted to say that if you got proper placement at any reasonable distance, you'd have a skin for the barn wall.

Coyote are tougher, more muscle, heavier boned. Maybe 50 yards or so?

 

[USP]

i guess i like the 'tacticool' look

thanks for putting me in my place....

at least now I know what I be a getting (er- saving up for...)

ht tp://cdn5.thefirearmsblog.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/MR1Ext.Mag-Silo.jpg

still has the 'tacticool' look i love, .223 , and best of all- non-restricted!
or something else...recommend me i suppose.

EDIT: I didn't know that picture was so huge....

Im not putting anybody in thier place. If you want the "tactical" look for hunting there are better alternatives than 9mm. Lots of stuff in .223 or even bigger. My preference for that sort of thing would be M1A Scout in 7.62, short but flexible.

Your limiting yourself with the 9mm.