After effects of the T97 Ban

[omegaboost]

lol@ppl in this thread. I know its not easy or maybe even possible to converted to full-auto but the point is that because the switch could go to full-auto, they had to invent BS to take it off the shelf. If it wouldnt turn completely like the tavor or any AR, then I dont think they would have done anything.

I am aware of all the BS that goes on with the gun laws so please.

 

[Kenyon]

Not totally true, the VZ58 (CZH2003) with the chrome bore has a three position safety with '30' stamped into the receiver, but its just another safe position, granted its restricted but only by length not action

 

[Questar]

I'm sure this is NOT what people want to hear and I can't personally confirm the truth, but the info that I was given (quite some time ago), is that the T-97's can be converted to full-auto in under 2 minutes, using less than $10 worth of parts purchased from pretty much any hardware store and that the conversion required no permanent change to the gun so it could be installed and/or removed in less than 2 minutes.

Again, I have not verified any of that personally (no real way for me to do so)... nor can I confirm if it's true... but the source was reliable and from someone who knows the facts. I have no reason to believe he lied to me, though I'm sure many on here will conclude that it's not true.

The problem with the T97 and potentially for many other firearms now being "reviewed" is that everything is now being (additionally) evaluated based on the precedent set by the court in the Hasselwander decision. Some of that decision (overlooked for years by many including the RCMP Tables Section) created some questionable criteria for how to interpret the full auto legislation.

Back to the question posed by the OP... the biggest result of the T97 fiasco is that RCMP/CFC/CBSA and CFO's have been tightening and changing importation regulations making it harder and harder to import "new" firearms into Canada. It used to be that we could easily import a "new" design and once it was here get it classified and registered... the whole process took a few days or weeks at most. Now they want the guns evaluated and classified BEFORE importation or even issuance of the IIC. They have even (recently) started changing the wording of Business Licenses to specifically require that all guns must be in the CFIS database before importation and/or acceptance by the business. This creates a huge bottleneck and slowdown for new firearm designs/models, especially given the ever increasing time delays in classifications, registrations, etc..

It has been my experience that most of these "negative" pressures are coming from outside the RCMP technical lab itself... they are simply doing what they are told or pressured to do.

Of course I can't prove any of it

Mark

 

[CHAO5]

Anyone else still have a $100 deposit for one with Canada ammo?

 

[notsorichguy]

Well this is just silly...... If the idea that it could be 'made' to be FA then all we are left with is a few bolt guns.

Give me 30 min and a hot glue gun and I can make my 10/22 FA.

Give me 1 min and a tooth pick and I can make my E1 FA.

Give me 20 min and a file and I can make my 1911/Glock/Sig FA.

Etc. Etc......

Horse pucky!

 

[Rocket Surgery]

True, I was thinking of making it look presentable as well. Open bolt FA is a piece of cake to make work. Having to have a hammer/striker, firing pin and the other bits for closed bolt semi would make it much harder to do at home.

Hmmm, maybe we should discuss all this over a good bottle of scotch someday?


Mark

I like Laphroig quarter cask, but if you're into Ardbeg or Lagavulin I won't say no if you're paying!

 

[haha49]

I don't think you would need a machine shop for a Sten. I think I could do one with hand tools and a drill press in my garage with a bit of part time effort.

+1 on the registration = confiscation comments. This clearly shows how it works, but the non-gun owning public won't or don't care.


Mark

They are very easy to make.. my Great Grandfather used to make them for WW2 so my grandfather showed me how he did it.. all you need is basic tools and a good vice.. the mags are the hard part... gun easy mags hard.. and yes you could do that at 1 point before the laws changed..

I cant remember how to do it since I was 3 or 4 at the time but it was fun to watch..

 

[Clobbersauras]

To be honest, I firmly believe that part of the reason why the T97 was prohibited was all the noise myself and others made about it. Leading up to the importation of the Non-Restricted T97, myself and a bunch of others made numerous posts about the rifle and it's variants. In our excitement (and friggen stupidity), we posted and posted and posted about it. So much so, that I believe the RCMP stood and took notice of this cheap little bullpup.

How could we know that they can supposedly be easily converted? Of course we couldn't, it wasn't even a thought for any of us. We never thought that the RCMP would change the classification, but they found a way to do it and took full advantage. To my shame, it seems to have started a trend with them.

In this case I firmly believe we did it to ourselves, and I bear a lot of the blame, due to the volume of pics etc I posted about it.

 

[mildot]

To be honest, I firmly believe that part of the reason why the T97 was prohibited was all the noise myself and others made about it. Leading up to the importation of the T97, myself and a bunch of others made numerous posts about the rifle and it's variants. In our excitement (and friggen stupidity), we posted and posted and posted about it, so much so, I believe the RCMP stood and took notice of this cheap little bullpup.

How could we know they could supposedly be easily converted? Of course we couldn't, it wasn't even a thought for any of us. And none of us thought that the RCMP would change the classification, and to my shame, it seems to have started a trend with them. But they found a way to do it and took full advantage.

In this case I firmly believe we did it to ourselves, and I bear a lot of the blame in this case, due to the volume of pics etc I posted about it.

Don't beat yourself up too badly, the SCAR FOI proved that the RCMP go to websites and see what people are saying, fair enough.Does that impact there decision? if that's the case they would know that the civilian version of the SCAR is a manufactured only semi auto, you can't use a FA carrier in the civilian model nor will a FA "top end" work on a lower, vise versa, a FA lower won't work/fit on a civilian semi auto rifle.

There is no way in hell that the SCAR would be in the US market if it could be converted, plain and simple.

So what's the "beef" once again a classification system with no accountability.

 

[smartbomb]

Deleted

 

[smartbomb]

Deleted

 

[twyeh]

One thing is certain, any newly imported firearms needing a new FRT are heavily scrutinized today because of the T97.

As for the T97, the current batch in the country will need to be sent back to China and the receivers will need to be redone there. Then the RCMP will need to test the new sample again and maybe it will pass then? How likely that will happen is a big mystery. Only Canadaammo can truly answer that question.

 

[tinbird]

Well this is just silly...... If the idea that it could be 'made' to be FA then all we are left with is a few bolt guns.

Give me 30 min and a hot glue gun and I can make my 10/22 FA.

Give me 1 min and a tooth pick and I can make my E1 FA.

Give me 20 min and a file and I can make my 1911/Glock/Sig FA.

Etc. Etc......

Horse pucky!

I understand what you're saying, but posting this kind of reply does not help firearm owners.
What is possibly can do, is provide 'antis' with more 'ammo' to put forth to the government for further restrictions.

TB

 

[wicked_police]

I'm sure this is NOT what people want to hear

You're right, no one wants to hear it, since it doesn't fit with their preconceived notions of what really happened.

and I can't personally confirm the truth, but the info that I was given (quite some time ago), is that the T-97's can be converted to full-auto in under 2 minutes, using less than $10 worth of parts purchased from pretty much any hardware store and that the conversion required no permanent change to the gun so it could be installed and/or removed in less than 2 minutes.

Again, I have not verified any of that personally (no real way for me to do so)... nor can I confirm if it's true... but the source was reliable and from someone who knows the facts. I have no reason to believe he lied to me, though I'm sure many on here will conclude that it's not true.

With the attitude of many on this site towards police, and especially the rcmp, of course they will refuse to believe anything of the sort.

Case in point.

To be honest, I firmly believe that part of the reason why the T97 was prohibited was all the noise myself and others made about it.

In this case I firmly believe we did it to ourselves, and I bear a lot of the blame, due to the volume of pics etc I posted about it.

Along with all the other reasons given in the thread such as it being cheap, using AR mags, non-restricted, the 'switch goes to full-auto' (what ever that means), etc.

Yes, it was SO EASY that it took the RCMP a full machine shop, a dozen weapons techs......

This is absolutely, 100%, spot-on.

-M

When did you visit the lab to see this full machine shop and dozen weapon techs?

 

[ciphery]

Agreed... time, tools, will and knowledge... that is all that is needed... and of course, for the RCMP, an agenda

+1
Side cutters is all it would take on a Rem597, popcicle stick for a sks.....hey at only $180 why weren't they ban?

 

[Clobbersauras]

You're right, no one wants to hear it, since it doesn't fit with their preconceived notions of what really happened. With the attitude of many on this site towards police, and especially the rcmp, of course they will refuse to believe anything of the sort.

Case in point.

Just because I don't agree with the RCMP in this particular circumstance doesn't mean I hate the RCMP. Give your head a shake.

I heard the easy to convert line long ago, it's old news. I had an RCMP tech tell me on the phone that an importer "tried to pull a fast one" with the type 97. Do I believe it? I don't know. All I know is my Type 97 was not able to fire in a fully auto mode, ever.

The Hasselwander precedent is flawed, or do you agree with this standard as well?

 

[wicked_police]

I never said you hate the rcmp. Try and understand what's typed.

And while the ability to convert it easily may be old news, it sure doesn't stop the usual crap from being posted.

As far as hasselwander, I don't know enough about it to have an opinion one way or the other. So what do you mean by agree with it 'as well'? As well as what?

 

[Paul Morrison]

Yes, it was SO EASY that it took the RCMP a full machine shop, a dozen weapons techs, and 18 months to convert one rifle...

To be fair, it was actually less than three weeks. I know the dates.

is that the T-97's can be converted to full-auto in under 2 minutes, using less than $10 worth of parts purchased from pretty much any hardware store and that the conversion required no permanent change to the gun so it could be installed and/or removed in less than 2 minutes.

What you describe, in my opinion, does not make it a full auto under the hasselwander test. The Hasselwander test requires: "... capable of conversion to an automatic weapon in a relatively short period of time with relative ease." So, there are two parts: (1) conversion in a relatively short period of time and (2) conversion with relative ease.

The RCMP was able to convert it with available parts, and can achieve the conversion quickly. That is not sufficient. The RCMP firearms lab is a group of experts. They had the rifle for 21 days, studied it, determined how to make the conversion, and then tweaked the conversion to ensure it would be capable of being done quickly and with available parts. To my knowledge, NO ONE outside the RCMP firearms lab actually knows the manner of conversion. There were dozens of them already in civillian hands for over two years, and yet not one report that they were ever actually converted. No 'kits' for adapting them were available. This all stands in marked contrast to Hasselwander, where parts kits were sold openly and legally, and where the knowledge was widely available.

In my opinion, a conversion where the knowledge is exclusive to that of the RCMP firearms lab, or where a skilled gunsmith would be required to engineer such a conversion it fails the 'relative ease' part of the hasselwander test. The knowledge is not easily acquired. Therefore it is not capable with relative ease.

 

[Questar]

To be fair, it was actually less than three weeks. I know the dates.



What you describe, in my opinion, does not make it a full auto under the hasselwander test. The Hasselwander test requires: "... capable of conversion to an automatic weapon in a relatively short period of time with relative ease." So, there are two parts: (1) conversion in a relatively short period of time and (2) conversion with relative ease.

The RCMP was able to convert it with available parts, and can achieve the conversion quickly. That is not sufficient. The RCMP firearms lab is a group of experts. They had the rifle for 21 days, studied it, determined how to make the conversion, and then tweaked the conversion to ensure it would be capable of being done quickly and with available parts. To my knowledge, NO ONE outside the RCMP firearms lab actually knows the manner of conversion. There were dozens of them already in civillian hands for over two years, and yet not one report that they were ever actually converted. No 'kits' for adapting them were available. This all stands in marked contrast to Hasselwander, where parts kits were sold openly and legally, and where the knowledge was widely available.

In my opinion, a conversion where the knowledge is exclusive to that of the RCMP firearms lab, or where a skilled gunsmith would be required to engineer such a conversion it fails the 'relative ease' part of the hasselwander test. The knowledge is not easily acquired. Therefore it is not capable with relative ease.

Then your knowledge is incomplete... I know of at least 1 person outside the RCMP firearms lab that actually knows the manner of conversion as you phrased it.

Hasselwander does not limit the amount of time needed to "study the problem" only the time needed to accomplish the conversion. Just because the lab had the gun in their possession for 21 days (the figure you state) does NOT in fact mean they started working with it on day one... it may have sat there for a week or more before they ever looked at it. We have submitted guns for examination that have sat for months awaiting their "turn" to be examined. My understanding (from what I was told about the T97) is that the lab technician came up with the conversion concept in a VERY short period of time (read minutes not weeks).

Who knows how many people who had the T97 in their possession prior to the classification change actually came up with the conversion and did it... a person would have to be an idiot to publicly boast that they had intentionally built a Prohibited Firearm by illegally converting it to full auto operation.

From what I have been told about this specific case there is very little doubt (in my mind) that the court will have to confirm the RCMP's findings.

Mark

 

[North Eastern Arms]

I'm sure this is NOT what people want to hear and I can't personally confirm the truth, but the info that I was given (quite some time ago), is that the T-97's can be converted to full-auto in under 2 minutes, using less than $10 worth of parts purchased from pretty much any hardware store and that the conversion required no permanent change to the gun so it could be installed and/or removed in less than 2 minutes.

Again, I have not verified any of that personally (no real way for me to do so)... nor can I confirm if it's true... but the source was reliable and from someone who knows the facts. I have no reason to believe he lied to me, though I'm sure many on here will conclude that it's not true.

Finally someone said it. I have heard the exact same thing and if it is true, its disappointing that the CSSA and other groups threw money and good will fighting it.