IPSC Production gun question

stormbringer said:
Let me get this straight............

The rules currently do not disallow it.

There is a PROPOSAL to change the rules to disallow it.........but it has not been passed.

ONE individual on the Exec says that he does not like it.

So now it is not allowed?

Is that what I am reading here?

If so why the heck even have rules? Why have votes? Why have an organization at all?

Change the name of IPSC to VPPSC for christ sakes!
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Amen brother
 
Make a rule don't make a rule, sometimes you have to use common sense, we all know how a gun works, full mag empty mag what does it matter as long as it is done correctly and safely. The next thing you guys are going to be saying that everyone has to use a stripper mag to load.
Yes we request this in our Black badge courses but just for the course, it is something we recommend.
 
7.62mm said:
If I wasn't banned for some inane reason, I would be more than happy to read the thread!
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Magazine Safety - IPSC Global Village http://ipsc.invisionzone.com/index.php?showtopic=13198
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11-07-08 2:47 PM
Page 1 of 1
Magazine Safety and using a loaded mag at ICHDAH
Rob Engh Posted Yesterday, 12:26 AM
So, this topic is once again raising it's head. I am weak with the GoogleFoo tonight and can't find our previous discussions, if anyone can link me that would be much appreciated, or we can discuss here again if Vince is ok with that.
the question is, Is it unsafe to use a loaded magazine in a gun with a magazine safety, to facilitate the Hammer Down portion of ICHDAH? This pretty much applies only to certain M&P's although there are other guns out there that have them too. The sequence would be standard until the Hammer Down portion at which point the slide is put forward, a loaded or unloaded mag is inserted and the trigger pulled to drop the hammer/striker, magazine (of either condition) is removed, gun is then holstered in keeping with And Holster.
problems?
Sandy Pramadi Posted Yesterday, 12:37 AM
excuse me... can you make the question more clear? I am sorry, I do not get what you mean thx
Rob Engh Posted Yesterday, 12:54 AM
sorry,
Competitor unloads gun at the If Finished Unload and Show Clear. Gun is empty, the command If Clear Hammer Down and Holster is given. The competitor puts the slide forward, inserts a loaded magazine, pulls the trigger and removes the magazine, then holsters the gun. This is in reference to firearms with magazine safeties such as the M&P series, others. A magazine is needed inside the gun to drop the hammer/striker (also S&W 5946, some Beretta models, Ruger SR9 etc).
so the problem some people have is the competitor using a loaded mag to allow for the striker to be dropped. The important thing is, the magazine goes in, AFTER the slide goes forward, and then is removed after the "click"
Luca Zolla Posted Yesterday, 03:07 AM
(http://ipsc.invisionzone.com/index.php?app=forums&module=forums&section=findpost&
pid=133277) Rob Engh, on 07 July 2011 - 12:54 AM, said:
so the problem some people have is the competitor using a loaded mag to allow for the striker to be dropped. The important thing is, the magazine goes in, AFTER the slide goes forward, and then is removed after the "click"
Rob, to my understanding of the rules, this is not acceptable.
Magazine Safety - IPSC Global Village http://ipsc.invisionzone.com/index.php?showtopic=13198
2 of 3
11-07-08 2:47 PM
The competitor has been given the command to "Unload and Show Clear". He did. After that, he's loading again his firearm ("Loading" defined as per 12.5 "The insertion of ammunition into a firearm.") with a loaded magazine.
Not acceptable, as I said above: the gun has been loaded again, thus the RO would need to resume the whole unloading procedure from the "IYAF, UASC" step.
Louis Johannes Buys Posted Yesterday, 04:04 AM
Just use a empty mag or "Blue" mag. The "Blue mag will be my "favorite solution".
Rico Viljoen Posted Yesterday, 04:23 AM
The last discussion, IIRC, ended on that the shooter is to inform the RO of the magazine safety and then use an EMPTY magazine to hammer down....
Vince Pinto Posted Yesterday, 08:09 AM
(http://ipsc.invisionzone.com/index.php?app=forums&module=forums&section=findpost&
pid=133275) Rob Engh, on 07 July 2011 - 12:26 AM, said: problems? No Sir. From the January 2012 Handgun proposals:
(Draft) 8.3.7.1 Self-loaders – release the slide and pull the trigger (without touching the hammer or decocker, if any). If a handgun has a device which requires a magazine be inserted to enable the trigger to be pulled, the competitor must, on issuance of the above command, inform the Range Officer, who will direct and supervise the use, and subsequent removal, of an empty magazine to facilitate this process.
Rob Engh Posted Yesterday, 05:54 PM
Thanks Vince. As it stands now, is using a loaded magazine against the rule book? In my, and key here is my, opinion, there is nothing wrong with it. The magazine is removed prior to holstering the gun. I should note I have zero problem with the new rule, none at all, I'm simply looking at current rules application now.
Luca once the gun has gone "click" and the loaded magazine removed, there is no possibility of the gun being loaded. An official Interp on this, to cover from now to 2012 would be awesome. I guess I should send an email?
This post has been edited by Rob Engh: Yesterday, 05:56 PM
Terry Docherty Posted Yesterday, 08:10 PM
Agreed Rob slide is forward aint gunna get a round out of that mag unless the competitor puts one there. Just have to be as mindful as you should be anyway.
Vince Pinto
Magazine Safety - IPSC Global Village http://ipsc.invisionzone.com/index.php?showtopic=13198
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11-07-08 2:47 PM
Posted Yesterday, 08:52 PM
(http://ipsc.invisionzone.com/index.php?app=forums&module=forums&section=findpost&
pid=133304) Rob Engh, on 07 July 2011 - 05:54 PM, said: Thanks Vince. As it stands now, is using a loaded magazine against the rule book?
Our unloading rules are based on a progressive series of actions. The first is removing all ammunition, the second is a visual check of the chamber, and the final "belt & suspenders" action is pulling the trigger while the gun is pointed safely downrange.
To reinsert a loaded magazine once a gun has been unloaded is counter to the above protocols (and Rule 8.3.6), even when done under RO supervision. You need to use an empty mag or your pinky.
Rob Engh
Roger that Vince I will amend my procedures and pass along the info accordingly. Page 1 of 1
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Posted Today, 03:28 AM
 
I do not see how using a loaded mag contravenes 8.3.6


8.3.6 says

"If You Are Finished, Unload And Show Clear"
If the competitor has finished shooting, he must lower his handgun and
present it for inspection by the Range Officer with the muzzle pointed down
range, magazine removed, slide locked or held open, and chamber empty.
Revolvers must be presented with the cylinder swung out and empty.
Click to expand...

The above occurs BEFORE the situation we are describing even occurs!!



I can see it violating the 2012 PROPOSED rules............but they are not in play.


That said having a loaded mag in an empty chambered gun by Canadian Law is defined as being loaded so the catch 22 endless loop of IFUSC and ICHDH is a possibility.

That is the possible answer as to why it should not be allowed......

not because of 8.3.6 ,not because it is a PROPOSED rule and certainly not due to the opinion of ONE individual on a NON Official IPSC (or so I am told) Forum
 
I think I will take direction from NROI Canada, the governing body of RO's in Canada, until directed otherwise. As Global Village is not an Official Source of Information, others I think, would be wise to take the same direction.
 
7.62mm said:
I think I will take direction from NROI Canada, the governing body of RO's in Canada, until directed otherwise. As Global Village is not an Official Source of Information, others I think, would be wise to take the same direction.
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You do have a valid point.................

We have an POV from an OFFICIAL source in hand (NROI Canada). That would naturally overrule any UNofficial source of information such as GV. I mean that would be like us making up rules and interpretations of rules here on CGN. Anarchy would soon follow..........Wolves and Sheep sleeping together. The fabric of the entire universe as we know it could be ripped asunder!!! THINK OF THE CHILDREN!!!

Nope......I concur with 7.62. I will await for word from my National Body (which I doubt will be long in coming).
 
I am waiting on the official interpretation email.
Eugene, no it still doesn't mean its a loaded gun in my opinion, nor do I think its an unsafe action. I still won't require anyone to use an unloaded mag until I get that email but I also won't bother arguing it any further.
 
At this point, Eugene...you should think about how you will enforce something that a cro will not back you on.
 
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