Self defense loads for 9mm

jawsman said:
To KDX and all others I riled up with my quick comments at the start of this thread I'm deeply sorry. I did not think when I typed what I did and I certainly did not mean for the heavy debate that ensued.

To be serious about answering your intended question I would probably go with Hornady 124gr XTP's for loading any self defense load for a 9mm. I would however be curious to see the penetration ability of the Berry's HP bullets. They are only a few dollars more than the round nose profile bullet I have used. If they worked well, they would be cheap and plentiful to shoot tons of and you would always be ready.

My $0.02.

Again sorry for starting all this......
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I have had a .40 cal 180gr berrys TMJFN completely penetrate a 5gallon pail filled with water in my 10mm. If anything, over-penetration simillar to FMJ may be an issue. I also noticed the 45cal hollow point berrys to be too solidly constructed to expand at all when penetrating pails of water. XTP's are also fairly solid, but the hard driven .40 cal tears open water jugs and pails like a fat kid getting through a Lil Debbie wrapper.
 
jawsman said:
Of course since we have no CCW in this country yet and you are unlikely to run to your lock-up, and unlock your 9mm, load a mag and actually use it in a real life situation. I guessing your question is mostly theoretical?
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f:P:

Seriously? So you think that you could make it from my front door to my bedroom (at 3am, in the dark, in an unfamiliar house) before I can take the 3 steps to my safe, punch in a 4 digit code, insert a mag in a pistol and rack the slide? I bet you lose, and I have done nothing illegal in the process.


CeeZer said:
Dunno how it'd be treated in Canada, but in US it'd be a law suit against the handloader for sure; if the load was used for SD (self defence).
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easyrider604 said:
Regarding lawsuits against handloaders, this is the topic of endless discussions.
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Massad Ayoob has mentioned many times to not use handloads for self defense. It is because of the terrible optics of you loading your own "man-killer rounds". He recommends always using quality commercial defense ammo with whatever hollowpoint bullet you prefer. From what I gather, Speer Gold Dot ammo is considered the gold standard right now, with Hornady TAP ammo also highly regarded. Both of these are available in Canada, if painfully expensive.


Mark
 
Use what the RCMP uses. In the event (God forbid) that you need to use your pistol for self-defense, it will be easier for your lawyer to defend you...

While you could probably build a superior hand-loaded cartridge, surviving a dangerous encounter is only part of the story - the court battle afterwards is the other part. The prosecution doesn't care that someone invaded your house with the intent to kill you and rape your daughter... They only want to "win" their case - by putting you behind bars. Don't give them any additional "ammo".
 
How about hardcast Lee 358-125-RF?
It's a great bullet on top of 5gr Unique and expands well at 14BHN.

For those advocating against reloads because them might be misconstrued as man-killers, in Canada we all do target shooting and defense is only incidental. So it can't be misconstrued. Hopefully :D
 
1. What is the difference between a factory Gold Dot and a reloaded Gold Dot, as far as the prosecution is concerned? If HP ammo is not illegal, and reloading is not illegal, what role does the source of the ammo play?

2. Does anybody know if there has really been an actual case tried here in Canada, where the shooter who feared for his life and the life of his loved ones, was convicted for murder (any degree) or manslaughter?
 
In Quebec...At the range I asked an Instructor if your allowed to use your firearm in self defense. His reply was that your allowed to have your firearm with you, but must let the intruder know it as well, and give him a chance to leave. Better still if you call 911 and let them here what's going on, as a self defense measure.

What do you think?
 
I think dead men tell no tales. As long as he's not shot in the back you should be OK. Having something in his hand is a plus.
 
Legalities aside, I'm with easyrider604. The most critical thing for a defensive load is reliability, because if it won't feed or fire properly, then it's worse than useless. 'Worse' because it leads you to trust a fallible weapon when you could have been looking for something reliable like a baseball bat. Better a .22LR that fires 100% of the time than a .40 that you can't depend on.

Find what your weapon will feed 100% of the time; that's the starting place.
 
tjhaile said:
I believe that Ayoob's main issue with reloads is that there is no way of using gunshot residue tests to determine the distance, at which the shooting took place, as there is no factory ammo of the same type to use for comparison. Discussion can be found here:

http://smith-wessonforum.com/reloading/183812-reloads-law-6.html#post135884843
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I think the answer to the "distance" question is simple.

Ask the shooter for some of his SD reloads for lab test:) or subpoena his SD ammo reloading data.
 
easyrider604 said:
If HP ammo is not illegal, and reloading is not illegal, what role does the source of the ammo play?
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tjhaile said:
I believe that Ayoob's main issue with reloads is that there is no way of using gunshot residue tests to determine the distance, at which the shooting took place, as there is no factory ammo of the same type to use for comparison. Discussion can be found here:

http://smith-wessonforum.com/reloading/183812-reloads-law-6.html#post135884843
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What I have read from him is that in court the CA will paint you as a bloodthirsty wild man, who was so obsessed with killing that you weren't satisfied with commercial ammo, but that you had to craft your own special rounds. Hollowpoints are easy to defend, because most police agencies use them and they are actually more humane, because you have to shoot the perp fewer times to stop him (Ayoob's words, not mine).


Mark
 
mmattockx said:
....but that you had to craft your own special rounds. Hollowpoints are easy to defend, because most police agencies use them and they are actually more humane, because you have to shoot the perp fewer times to stop him (Ayoob's words, not mine).
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Wouldn't crafting "special rounds" that would kill more "efficiently" be more humane then?

Following the line of reasoning that HPs are more humane, aside from being more effective one-shot-stoppers, then all the more reason that reloads should be the preferred ammo of choice, by both the homeowner, the courts and the perp.
 
An argument can be made (one used by the police in many places when they went to HP in the first place) that such bullets reduce shoot-through, thus lowering the danger level for people in the next room/house/etc.
 
easyrider604 said:
Wouldn't crafting "special rounds" that would kill more "efficiently" be more humane then?

Following the line of reasoning that HPs are more humane, aside from being more effective one-shot-stoppers, then all the more reason that reloads should be the preferred ammo of choice, by both the homeowner, the courts and the perp.
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Those were Ayoob's words, not mine. I think the point was that it made you look like a bloodthirsty killer just looking for an excuse to ventilate a POS, which makes it look more like you were looking for trouble and not an innocent law abiding citizen that trouble found.


Mark
 
This quote from Massad Ayoob (post #93) in the thread I posted sums it up best:

The "regular bullets weren't deadly enough for you" argument also comes up with hollow points. Both arguments can be defeated. I think factory hollow points give enough better performance than non-expanding bullets to make that argument worth fighting in court. Handloaded ones, not so much, since there are more arguments to fight and no provable performance gain over factory HP. But this argument does not concern me nearly as much as the inability to replicate ammo for GSR testing to show distance between the two parties, which often becomes an issue in court, and can be a cornerstone for determining who seems to be telling the truth, as it was in the Bias case.
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In the case of New Jersey v. Daniel Bias, to which he refers, the defendant was convicted of manslaughter because of the discrepancy between his reloads and factory ammo with the same headstamp. The basis of defence's case was that the death of his wife was a suicide and he was trying to stop her from killing herself in the process. The Federal +P factory ammo as tested left much more residue with a near contact shot than did his light reloads in the same make of cases, which would make it appear as if he shot her from a longer range if he were using the factory ammo. The issue is that the evidence supporting the defendant was manufactured by the defendant himself.
 
You NEVER used home loads, as any Judge, Jury or Prosecutor will tear you up for loading those evil, killing, bombastic, incredibly hot, malicious rounds. you use ONLY FACTORY AMMO, EVER, period, end of story. Anything else opens a whole can of worms you don't want open.
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Someone always posts a like comment yet I have never heard of any court case that went bad due to the use of handloaded ammo. I think this is an urban myth.


XTP or GoldDots or so; 124gr.
115gr if you are after high velosity and deep penetration, just make sure it can handle multiple layers of clothing.
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What makes you think that high velocity = penetration?

In fact the exact opposite is true. High velocity typically results in less penetration. A heavier, slower bullet will always penetrate more than a lightweight fast bullet.
 
The idea of loading "hot" is to ensure the velocity is high enough to hopefully expand the bullet.
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Pistol bullets are designed to expand at their normal operating velocities. Loading hot will not make a bit of difference. In fact go too hot and the bullet may blow up on the surface and not penetrate at all.

The idea that you will load a bullet as hot as possible essentially is saying you know better than the bullet manufacturer, which I highly doubt you do.


I expressed my opinion on the subject. I still think 124gr and 115gr are a better choice over 147gr bullet;
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I'd be interested to know on what evidence you are basing your opinion? Have you done any terminal ballistics testing on various weights and styles of bullets? Have you measured penetration and compared it to expansion size?


If I were to keep self defense ammo, I would have no doubt that my reloaded ammo will be as reliable and effective as factory.
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I won't argue the reliable issue but how do you know that reloads will be as effective as factory ammo? From my experience, the JHP bullets available for reloading are not quite as good as those available in factory ammo. The bullets may look the same but they are not the same inside.
 
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