M&P and Glock comparison with pics

I have DAO striker fired guns, SA hammer guns as well as DA/SA. I think the downside of the Glock/M&P action (as well as a SA) is the lack of re-strike capability. No matter how you look at it Glock's/M&P's trigger can't reset itself, so when dryfiring you have to partially rack the slide and regardless what one thinks about the second strike capability DA/SA guns have it; which makes it superior to DAO striker fired guns.

And here we go..

The issue for dry firing is annoying, but it is in no way validation for the "inferior" design comment. Dry firing is poor mans training. Life fire is far more valuable.

As for second strike(SS) capability. There is no need for it. Striking a hard primer/dead primer/empty chamber a second, third or fourth time will accomplish nothing. IA for a type one malfunction is to TAP RACK, not CLICK CLICK. SS has the potential to solve but ONE problem, a hard primer, and that's not a sure thing either. TAP RACK will solve all problems, everytime.

TDC
 
A tap rack will not solve the single most common - and by a huge margin - cause of a stoppage, though.


And what would that be?


It won't solve a double feed.

I never said it would solve a double feed, I said it would solve all possible issues related to a type ONE malfunction.

Unseated magazine
Bad ammo
Bad magazine
Failure to extract(might solve it, surely has a better chance than SS does at solving it)
Out of battery slide
No ammo(failure to lock open)

Second strike could solve the following

Bad ammo

I can see that SS is a far more useful function than simple IA. Clearly SS is something that should be standard on all pistols..:rolleyes:

TDC
 
[As for second strike(SS) capability. There is no need for it. Striking a hard primer/dead primer/empty chamber a second, third or fourth time will accomplish nothing. IA for a type one malfunction is to TAP RACK, not CLICK CLICK. SS has the potential to solve but ONE problem, a hard primer, and that's not a sure thing either. TAP RACK will solve all problems, everytime.
In my experience second strike ALWAYS set off a round if the first round doesn't go off, that's enough for me to make it useful.
 
In my experience second strike ALWAYS set off a round if the first round doesn't go off, that's enough for me to make it useful.

That's good for you then.


You should know that no serious user or instructor will ever teach or recommend relying on pulling the trigger again if the gun doesn't fire. As posted above, there are too many other possibilities to go with pulling the trigger again, only to find that it wasn't a bad primer, but one of the many other problems that cause a stoppage.


Just keep on having fun at the range though, poking holes in paper.
 
In my experience second strike ALWAYS set off a round if the first round doesn't go off, that's enough for me to make it useful.

Meh, if my gun fails to fire for any reason, I'm gonna tap/rack.
Pulling the trigger a second time after a click with no bang seems goofy to me, it's not an airsoft pistol :rolleyes:
 
And what would that be?

Empty mag...if your trigger is dead and your gun is not making loud noises anymore, the overwhelming majority of the time it's because you ran out of ammo.

Tapping and racking will not help. You need to reload. People who type more than they shoot - well, that's probably all of us, but people who shoot more in theory than in actual practise won't understand what I'm saying here because it sounds obvious. But under serious stress, nothing is obvious.

The fact is if your gun stops working, you probably need to reload it. If you default to one solution to all your stoppage issues, you will not fix this issue. You need to engage your brain and determine what's caused the stoppage, because it might be a tap-rack situation, but it probably isn't, and at that point tapping and racking is just wasting time.

Thankfully I'm not someone who really has to worry about the time it takes. But for people who do need to worry, it's critical.

If you've shot to slidelock, and you need to keep shooting, you are in serious ####, so any time you waste is not cool at all.

Of course like so much of what gets talked about here, this is really only significant to those of us who are betting our lives on our guns (i.e. not me). But if that what we're talking about, then that's how it goes. A dead gun in a gun fight is probably empty and just needs more bang pills, and tapping and racking it once or a hundred times won't help you. You will ONLY get by it if you get your brain running enough to recognize what's gone wrong.

And I can say that even just under the slight pressure of having a bunch of guys around you moving and shooting, even if you're all shooting in the same general direction, a LOT of people empty mags in about a quarter the time they think they're going to. I actually saw some very competent people recently shaken up a little by having guys moving and shooting around them in a team drill, and you could see from their actions that they were mistaking empty guns for malfunctioning guns.

I would guess that in an actual gun fight, people reach the end of their first mag in what feels like about three trigger presses, so I am doubtful that very many people would correctly predict just when their mag is going to run out. And even if they do, there's only one way they've done it: keeping their brain engaged and diagnosing the cause of the stoppage.

Otherwise, they'd be standing (well, hopefully crouching behind cover, or running) there tapping and racking like a robot. Which I am sure some of us have seen.
 
If I just slapped a new mag and fired a few rounds so i know its seated properly and theres ammo in it I'd rather pull the trigger again since it simply takes a short finger monement and takes less time than tap/rack where you brake your grip and get the sights off the targer... My point is reguardless of what they teach you second strike is something a Glock simply cant do and other guns can (btw funny how its only Glock owners minimize the benefit of SS capability). I started this thread so i obviously have a few striker fired guns but also have a DA/SA guns and recognize the benefit of the SS capability.
 
My point is reguardless of what they teach you second strike is something a Glock simply cant do and other guns can (btw funny how its only Glock owners minimize the benefit of SS capability).

Your point is of little value. Just because the Glock can't do it and other guns can means nothing. That's as juvenile as saying my dad is better than your dad.

The people that know what they're doing have found that pulling the trigger again is building poor habits that at best will cost them a trophy, at worst cost them their (and their teammates) lives. But, I'm pretty sure that you don't fit into either of those categories. So really, you have nothing to worry about. Enjoy the 'benefit' of your guns with 2nd strike handicap. Or should that be handicapable....

And btw, it's not just Glock owners minimizing the 'benefit'. From what I've seen in this thread, it's people that know a little about what they're doing that aren't just minimizing it, they're totally discounting it.
 
Empty mag...if your trigger is dead and your gun is not making loud noises anymore, the overwhelming majority of the time it's because you ran out of ammo.

Tapping and racking will not help. You need to reload. People who type more than they shoot - well, that's probably all of us, but people who shoot more in theory than in actual practise won't understand what I'm saying here because it sounds obvious. But under serious stress, nothing is obvious.

The fact is if your gun stops working, you probably need to reload it. If you default to one solution to all your stoppage issues, you will not fix this issue. You need to engage your brain and determine what's caused the stoppage, because it might be a tap-rack situation, but it probably isn't, and at that point tapping and racking is just wasting time.

Thankfully I'm not someone who really has to worry about the time it takes. But for people who do need to worry, it's critical.

If you've shot to slidelock, and you need to keep shooting, you are in serious s**t, so any time you waste is not cool at all.

Of course like so much of what gets talked about here, this is really only significant to those of us who are betting our lives on our guns (i.e. not me). But if that what we're talking about, then that's how it goes. A dead gun in a gun fight is probably empty and just needs more bang pills, and tapping and racking it once or a hundred times won't help you. You will ONLY get by it if you get your brain running enough to recognize what's gone wrong.

And I can say that even just under the slight pressure of having a bunch of guys around you moving and shooting, even if you're all shooting in the same general direction, a LOT of people empty mags in about a quarter the time they think they're going to. I actually saw some very competent people recently shaken up a little by having guys moving and shooting around them in a team drill, and you could see from their actions that they were mistaking empty guns for malfunctioning guns.

I would guess that in an actual gun fight, people reach the end of their first mag in what feels like about three trigger presses, so I am doubtful that very many people would correctly predict just when their mag is going to run out. And even if they do, there's only one way they've done it: keeping their brain engaged and diagnosing the cause of the stoppage.

Otherwise, they'd be standing (well, hopefully crouching behind cover, or running) there tapping and racking like a robot. Which I am sure some of us have seen.

I fully agree that unseated magazines or empty guns are the most common cause of a type one stoppage. However, when comparing the IA to SS the IA will aid you in determining the problem long before SS ever will. It is true that your IA will not solve the empty gun problem, but it will eliminate the other possibilities that can cause a type one stoppage, leaving you with the reality that the gun is empty.

Not knowing your gun is empty on slide lock is the result of minimal range time. The recoil of the gun when the slide locks is different than when it doesn't. I can see not recognizing this under stress but the trigger feels much different as well, seeing as it is no longer operating the firing system. If you can't feel these two differences and/or see the slide locked to the rear, you need more range time. Diagnosing the stoppage takes serious effort and takes your focus off the threat, not to mention you may not have the ability to visually observe the gun to determine the stoppage. Executing an IA requires no additional input. You experienced a type one stoppage, you TAP RACK. You experience a type one stoppage again, you TAP RACK. You experience a type one stoppage again(third time) you reload. Some advocate reloading after the second type one, I say its personal preference. An additional diagnosis is only required if your IA fails to solve the problem, at which point remedial action is necessary. The point here is that SS is not, never has been, and never will be an effective method of solving any stoppage.

TDC
 
Your point is of little value. Just because the Glock can't do it and other guns can means nothing. That's as juvenile as saying my dad is better than your dad.
That comment is plain stupid, like I said it the last post post I OWN a couple Glocks myself, AS WELL as a few DA/SA guns. I'm just able to remain neutral unlike some people.
 
My comment was no more stupid than yours.

I'm neutral too. Did you miss where I said I own a Sig 226? I've also used them at work, along with HK's, Smiths, and Glocks. So I can speak with a little bit of knowledge on the subject.

But then this is the internet, so of course everyone is an SME.
 
That comment is plain stupid, like I said it the last post post I OWN a couple Glocks myself, AS WELL as a few DA/SA guns. I'm just able to remain neutral unlike some people.

There's no reason to be neutral. SS is not an effective or valid method for solving any problems. SS is a byproduct of the DA/SA system, not a design feature.

TDC
 
SS is a byproduct of the DA/SA system, not a design feature
FN FortyNine as well as Taurus 24/7 (not sure if all or only some models) to name a couple have have been designed to offer SS capability. It's not a feature only on guns that don't have it.
 
FN FortyNine as well as Taurus 24/7 (not sure if all or only some models) to name a couple have have been designed to offer SS capability. It's not a feature only on guns that don't have it.

I'm not so sure that SS was an intended "design" feature or if its simply a byproduct and they(FN and Taurus) are capitalizing on it by claiming it is by design to promote sales. Regardless, SS is stupid and a marketing gimmick targeted to the less informed. Learn to shoot, and learn to solve the problems associated with autos and things like SS will no longer be viewed as a benefit.

TDC
 
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