Weatherby Fan's
- Thread starter Whitetail Junkie
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The difference is that Holland And Holland used the belt because it was necessary at the time. Weatherby added belts to cases like the 240 Weatherby for purely cosmetic (marketing) reasons.
Are you just being argumentativeHere's back at you:
You condemn Weatherby's development of their line of cartridges because they have the "stupidest feature ever given to a propietary cartridge line" then qualify and defend Holland & Holland's use of same "stupid feature"
The difference is that Holland And Holland used the belt because it was necessary at the time. Weatherby added belts to cases like the 240 Weatherby for purely cosmetic (marketing) reasons.
Weatherby has always had to lie about their velocity, use longer barrels, max out pressure in their factory ammo, and use freebore to get any credible gain over their contemporaries. Like I said, gimmicks.
Really?
.270 Wby - created in 1943.
.300 Wby - created in 1944.
.257 Wby - created in 1944.
7mm Weatherby - created in the 1940's.
What contemporaries did they have then that were even remotely similar in performance? IMO they all came almost 20 years before comparible cartridges were brought to the market by Winchester and Remington.
I aknowledged, and agreed with this in a previous post. This addition can be legitimized to maintain continuity and brand recognition within his line of proprietary cartridges.
RememberTheSomme
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
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I'll have to agree with Gatehouse on the Belt marketing idea for the Weatherby's. Though it has been said the belted head case design is the absolute strongest and required for the ultra high working pressures generated by the cartridges, I have always doubted their need. The term belted Magnum, if it was used only to synonym power to the public, them Remington and Winchester both followed suit with their 1950's and 60's lines of new belted magnums as well. The .300 H&H required the belt, because headspacing was dicey at best, on that 8 1/2 degree shoulder. Remember though,... all these offerings from Weatherby and Remchester, brought new, powerful, practical, offering's to hunters everywhere in factory rifles and loads. And in the terms of remchester, at affordable prices to the masses.
Putting that aside, Weatherby used the H&H case to bring the term hypervelocity to a new level, and made it avaliable to the average shooter, with factory loads. The hyper velocity world passed from the Wildcatter, handloader only crowd, your ackerly's and the like, to the general public in factory Rifles and loads. Thumbs up Roy!
,and thanks Remchester for rifles i could afford to buy and shoot. The Big 7!!
Now back to the WSM's.
They bring no such sustantial increase in velocity or efficiency to the general public, over what is, and has been,... avaliable since the Weatherby's and Remchesters offerings from 50+ years ago.
The one thing I will credit the developers of them with is this;........if it don't need a belt, it doesn't get one.
The rest well, may be more marketing hype than substance......
Like I posted already, the Dakota Montana, an ultra lightweight Rifle for those who point to rifles like this, and say there, there......thats what needs a WSM, the 270Win is 9 ounces lighter with same barrel, than the 270WSM, and gives up absolutely nothing in terms of practical trajectory or knock down power. Enough of this 270WSM skullduggery. Jack where are you when we need you??
on the Belt marketing idea for the Weatherby's. Though it has been said the belted head case design is the absolute strongest and required for the ultra high working pressures generated by the cartridges, I have always doubted their need. The term belted Magnum, if it was used only to synonym power to the public, them Remington and Winchester both followed suit with their 1950's and 60's lines of new belted magnums as well. The .300 H&H required the belt, because headspacing was dicey at best, on that 8 1/2 degree shoulder. Remember though,... all these offerings from Weatherby and Remchester, brought new, powerful, practical, offering's to hunters everywhere in factory rifles and loads. And in the terms of remchester, at affordable prices to the masses.Putting that aside, Weatherby used the H&H case to bring the term hypervelocity to a new level, and made it avaliable to the average shooter, with factory loads. The hyper velocity world passed from the Wildcatter, handloader only crowd, your ackerly's and the like, to the general public in factory Rifles and loads. Thumbs up Roy!
,and thanks Remchester for rifles i could afford to buy and shoot. The Big 7!!Now back to the WSM's.
They bring no such sustantial increase in velocity or efficiency to the general public, over what is, and has been,... avaliable since the Weatherby's and Remchesters offerings from 50+ years ago.
The one thing I will credit the developers of them with is this;........if it don't need a belt, it doesn't get one.
The rest well, may be more marketing hype than substance......
Like I posted already, the Dakota Montana, an ultra lightweight Rifle for those who point to rifles like this, and say there, there......thats what needs a WSM, the 270Win is 9 ounces lighter with same barrel, than the 270WSM, and gives up absolutely nothing in terms of practical trajectory or knock down power. Enough of this 270WSM skullduggery. Jack where are you when we need you??
But that gets back to the marketing gimmicks of his original cartridges. Roy pimped up his case and rifle design for marketing purposes. He didn't really need to put a double shoulder on them, nor did he really need to freebore his rifles. He did both for the purposes of a marketing gimmick.
Unlike some here, I don't feel that "marketing" is a dirty word...It was fine for Roy and fine when introducing the WSM's and fine when the 30-30 came out, too. If companies don't market their products, nobody will buy them, and then the companies won't exist and we won't have as many fun guns and cartridges to choose from.
That's what I said? What didn't the fanboy get?
oh yes, and Roy's "Venturi" shoulder. The "pear shaped" girl of the dance. Obviously Roy had no understanding that a Venturi works under negative and not positive pressure. Oh, I'm sorry, the .300 H&H, .30 Newton, .270 WCF etc. And Weatherby didn't stop marketing and promoting in the 40's did he? There is a lot of history to be read into, and I haven't read it all, but enough to know that when Roy actually had some stuff chronographed, tested etc, he wasn't meeting claims and had to TTY some ridiculous things to do so. That being said, those tactics are by no means unique to him. Enter the .264 Win Mag. Either way Roy fibbed and conjectured a lot, which is why he was a great salesman.
Like I said, gimmicks. And I have no WSM t the moment, nor have I owned a WSSM. I understand your despite and inherent anger toward short, stumpy things though. Blame genetics if you haven't already.
Newton was much more an innovator than Weatherby...Heck, he used what is basically a .375 Ruger case, almost 100 years ago!
Weatherby was a great promoter though. The marketing of the Weatherby line at a time of American prosperity is what made it successful. It sure wasn't the unnecessary belt, double shoulder and freebore.
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That's what I said? What didn't the fanboy get?
Oh, I'm sorry, the .300 H&H, .30 Newton, .270 WCF etc. And Weatherby didn't stop marketing and promoting in the 40's did he? There is a lot of history to be read into, and I haven't read it all, but enough to know that when Roy actually had some stuff chronographed, tested etc, he wasn't meeting claims and had to TTY some ridiculous things to do so. That being said, those tactics are by no means unique to him. Enter the .264 Win Mag. Either way Roy fibbed and conjectured a lot, which is why he was a great salesman.
Like I said, gimmicks. And I have no WSM t the moment, nor have I owned a WSSM. I understand your despite and inherent anger toward short, stumpy things though. Blame genetics if you haven't already.
Epic fail on all accounts. The double radius shoulder has a reason. It reduces chamber pressures.
Name one cartridge that Roy designed that never made published performance? I have and currently own quite a few and ALL meet published specs. How many have you owned or even shot? Lot's of talk and trashing from some people that probably never even owned or fired a Weatherby.
Roy hunted ALOT in Africa with his rifles and tested them on every game on that continent. How many times have you been to Africa?
And right there we see how effective Weatherby was at his marketing gimmicks!
While ROy claimed a few reasons for the shoulder, including "more efficient flow of powder gases" the real reason seemed to be protectionism, because it would have been difficult for Joe Gunsmith to get or make reamers to chamber rifles with these shoulders.
Seriously? Really? No it doesn't. That is why Roy had to add freebore.
All of them originally (at least the ones developed in the 40's). They didn't have powders available to facilitate the speeds he was claiming. You know, there are books out there on the subject of cartridges, and specifically Weatherby and his line. They have facts in them, and are actually interesting reads.
Roy hunted ALOT in Africa with his rifles and tested them on every game on that continent. How many times have you been to Africa?
And how many Weatherby's do you see in the hands of the Professional Hunters that live there day in and out and rely on their rifles to survive? Nearly none as they have an pervasive reputation as unreliable, and in fact if the don't have a double it is very likely they are carrying a Mauser, BRNO or Winchester Model 70 actioned rifle, and rarely ever in a Weatherby cartridge. Roy also had some very epic failures in Africa, and at this point the majority of Roy's theories created on those trips have been debunked. No Africa for me, but last I checked, the plumbing on the animals here is the same.
Fail indeed.
But back to the original posters intentions! Here is a piece of classic Weatherby goodness with all the fine details Roy loved to share with his perceptive and tasteful clients.
Or a piece from another talented American gunmaker with his own proprietary line, and has gone to the Great Maker in the sky,
Or a piece from another talented American gunmaker with his own proprietary line, and has gone to the Great Maker in the sky,
But back to the original posters intentions! Here is a piece of classic Weatherby goodness with all the fine details Roy loved to share with his perceptive and tasteful clients.
Or a piece from another talented American gunmaker with his own proprietary line, and has gone to the Great Maker in the sky,
The bottom Rifle looks something like my Cooper Model 56 Custom Classic thats being built,except the wood on my cooper is a higher Grade
Sweet, that happens to be a Dakota 76 African in I believe 450 Dakota?The bottom Rifle looks something like my Cooper Model 56 Custom Classic thats being built,except the wood on my cooper is a higher Grade
It and the 416 Weatherby above it sold for similar prices. I would obviously prefer the Dakota.
What cartridge is the Cooper coming in? I like the idea of a Classic Model 56 in 8mm Rem Mag.....
Uh huh. But I have never been to Africa and have a small WSSM (what ever that means) so I don't know nuttin'.
Quote: Like I said, gimmicks. And I have no WSM t the moment, nor have I owned a WSSM. I understand your despite and inherent anger toward short, stumpy things though. Blame genetics if you haven't already.
Is that what enabled you to move on with your own life? Nothing like giving advice garnered from life experience and No, I won't hold your parents responsible for your.... short-comings
Is that what enabled you to move on with your own life? Nothing like giving advice garnered from life experience
and No, I won't hold your parents responsible for your.... short-comingsBut back to the original posters intentions! Here is a piece of classic Weatherby goodness with all the fine details Roy loved to share with his perceptive and tasteful clients.
:
Such a classic example of Weatherby taking a nice piece of wood and turning it into a pimp gun.
None of which had remotely similar performance. All I am saying is that he was an innovater...in addition to being a good business man.
He did good things for the hunting community, and in my books that makes him one of the "good" ones.
Boy, love em or hate em. Roys rifles are a matter of personal taste. The rounds work, period. Bigger IS better. Don't realy care what they did years ago, they go fast now. Don't realy care about belts either. I've used them for 30 years and never had an issue. After the first firing you're headspacing on the shoulder anyway. After all that, I don't actually own any WBY rifles or even guns chambered for his rounds right now. No doubt I will though.
Well said. Really, I am only having a bit of fun. The rifles are ugly, but the cartridges work, and Roy was the man who gave us the North American belted magnum. He was an epitome of entrepreneur.
