bearkilr
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
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A custom rifle using a Stevens action.................. I can only dream of owning such a treasure.
Weatherby Fan's
- Thread starter Whitetail Junkie
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A custom rifle using a Stevens action.................. I can only dream of owning such a treasure.
Yes, I know that people are using Savage actions to make long range rigs, but they aren't making custom general purpose hunting rifles with them. Regardless, you brought the Savage thing into the discussion not to discuss long range custom Savages, but to attempt (rather poorly) to say that if I didn't think there was value in paying extra for Weatherby brass, then I must think that Stevens 200 rifles were the equal of all others:
So I responded (quite accurately)
Y
Now somehow you have gone off on a silly rant about custom Savage rifles which has very little to do with the conversation.
Okay, lets try again
Is this where you tell me that a 30-378 at 1000 yards is going to kill a deer or moose deader than a 300RUM at 1000 yards? Because if that is what you are saying, I'm just going to laugh.
Actually, I've been laughing for a loong time
I'm on my iPhone so I will keep this brief.
You seem to have a double standard. One the one hand you say it's ok to pay for more quality (guns) and on the other you take the stance that if something is cheaper but does alMost the same thing it's foolish to spend more then one has to. If you are convinced of the later then there is no reason to shoot anything but a Stevens 200 since it will do the same job as a rem, tikka etc.
If you are of the first conviction you should not see paying more for quality brass as a negative as there is a measurable increase of quality in Norma brass over remchester.
Then you stated that the Stevens is not as good as other actions which I again tried to convInce you otherwise of by explaining to you that people use them in custom rifles. People don't use junk when trying to shoot consistently at 1k+. People also use savage actions for regular Joe hunting rifles since you can buy prefit barrels and build your own gun.
I also tried to explain to you that for sOme people 120 fps increase is significant. I gave you several examples of what people do to reach this (insignificant increase as you call it) increase and how expensive some of those options are. I find it rather humorous that you are loading 130 gr ttsx in your 300 wsm to get 3500fps but more speed is useless, right?
He last thing here is your comments about 100fps not nattering if killing animals at 1k. Well if you knew anything about shooting animals that far I don't suppOse you would make that statement. Starting with more fps at the muzzle means you can push your killzone out further when setting your max range basses on a minimum expansion velocity of, say 1800fps. This is reliable expansion impact speed for the 210 Berger for example. You will get your minimum expansion velocity about 100 yards further out when starting faster. Higher MV also means less wind drift which is rather important since at 1k a 10mph crosswind will drift your bullet 50" or so. Nevermind that you can have crosswinds going both ways more than once between you and your target.
I hope his explains all my points to you sufficiently.
Cheaper than some Wby brass, and more expensive than others..... depends on the cartridge i guess
We'll call it a wash
I specified 30-378 brass, because I was offering the Warbird as a higher performance alternative to the 30-378, an alternative that also offers cheaper brass. A Lazzeroni isn't required to outperform some of the Weatherby cartridges like the 7mm wby, the 7mmSTW and 7MMRUM easily out perform it using even cheaper brass.
- Location
- Calgary, AB
If offers on paper about 100fps over the 30-378. How much are those Lazzeroni rifles btw
Comparing Weatherby 7mmWby ammunition to Factory loadings of the competing 7mm Cartridges you named, I think you'll see that it it gives up very little in the way of performance.
Maybe your dealer is able to sell Lazzeroni brass for less than some Weatherby (when he's able to get it). However now that Sako and Savage no-longer chamber economical rifles in his' cartridges it matters little because whatever change you save in the cost of brass will go to paying for one of his rifles.
Well it is foolish to spend more on no real results. But it's your money. Me, I'd rather buy Lapua brass for excellent quality but less money than the Norma Weatherby brass. But you spend all you want, where you want. I keep telling you this- I don't care where you spend your money!!! You seem to get hung up on it. Spend it where you want!
You can convince yourself that the Stevens is just as reliable as other rifles if you want. Having owned 2 stevens hunting rifles, I can tell you that they are not. No way I would reach for a Stevens when going on a back country fly in hunt in northern BC. And please- Remember a custom rifle is not a Stevens 200.
If I loaded the 130gr TTSX to 3400fps, no animal or target would ever notice. So yeah, small changes in velocity are insignificant in that regard. But the 130gr TTSX shoot the best in my rifle at about 3500fps, so why not use the best shooting. If I loaded them to 3600 in a 300WM, I still don't think I would see a difference.
I just ran the 210 Berger VLD with a 3000fps MV and a 3120 MV through the JBM ballistic calculator for 1000 yards
3000fps
Drop- 215"
Wind- 60"
Velocity-1675
Energy- 1300ft/lbs
3120fps
Drop- 193"
Wind- 57"
Velocity-1759
Energy- 1442
Difference
Drop- 22"
Wind- 3"
Velocity-86fps
Energy- 142 ft/lbs
So-
Drop is compensated for by scope adjustment
Windage is only 3" difference
Both velocities are well below 1800 fps at 1000 yards. At 900 yards both loads should expand with 1790 and 1875fps respectively.
Energy is less than a .22LR
Once again, if you are going to tell me that the 30-378 is going to kill something deader than the 300RUM, I'm going to laugh.....
Then again, if I had any interest in shooting an animal at 1000 yards, I'd probably use a 7mm, just like the cool guys on TV do.
No, mostly you just said the same stuff about how people use Stevens actions for long range custom rifles and therefore the Stevens 200 is just as good as a Winchester, and that you think that 100fps is the most important thing in killing an animal.
God bless the intraweb.
If offers on paper about 100fps over the 30-378. How much are those Lazzeroni rifles btw
Apparently 100 fps is the most critical aspect of killing a moose.
I could care less how much they cost, If I wanted a long range rifle, I would not purchase a factory Weathery or a Lazzeroni, I would have one built. A long range cartridge is a waste without long range accuracy, and Weatherby's 1-1/2" accuracy guarantee is pathetic. For rifles in the same price range as a Mark V, Sako offers a 1" guarantee, and Cooper offers a 1/2" guarantee, even when chambered in the 300wby.
Well it is foolish to spend more on no real results. But it's your money. Me, I'd rather buy Lapua brass for excellent quality but less money than the Norma Weatherby brass. But you spend all you want, where you want. I keep telling you this- I don't care where you spend your money!!! You seem to get hung up on it. Spend it where you want!
You can convince yourself that the Stevens is just as reliable as other rifles if you want. Having owned 2 stevens hunting rifles, I can tell you that they are not. No way I would reach for a Stevens when going on a back country fly in hunt in northern BC. And please- Remember a custom rifle is not a Stevens 200.
If I loaded the 130gr TTSX to 3400fps, no animal or target would ever notice. So yeah, small changes in velocity are insignificant in that regard. But the 130gr TTSX shoot the best in my rifle at about 3500fps, so why not use the best shooting. If I loaded them to 3600 in a 300WM, I still don't think I would see a difference.
I just ran the 210 Berger VLD with a 3000fps MV and a 3120 MV through the JBM ballistic calculator for 1000 yards
3000fps
Drop- 215"
Wind- 60"
Velocity-1675
Energy- 1300ft/lbs
3120fps
Drop- 193"
Wind- 57"
Velocity-1759
Energy- 1442
Difference
Drop- 22"
Wind- 3"
Velocity-86fps
Energy- 142 ft/lbs
So-
Drop is compensated for by scope adjustment
Windage is only 3" difference
Both velocities are well below 1800 fps at 1000 yards. At 900 yards both loads should expand with 1790 and 1875fps respectively.
Energy is less than a .22LR
Once again, if you are going to tell me that the 30-378 is going to kill something deader than the 300RUM, I'm going to laugh.....
Then again, if I had any interest in shooting an animal at 1000 yards, I'd probably use a 7mm, just like the cool guys on TV do.
No, mostly you just said the same stuff about how people use Stevens actions for long range custom rifles and therefore the Stevens 200 is just as good as a Winchester, and that you think that 100fps is the most important thing in killing an animal.
God bless the intraweb.
You are the one hung up on cost of ammo/brass since you continue to quote the prices of such.
A custom rifle is merely something made to your specifications. Why would a rifle in a custom stock with a custom barrel on a 200 action not be custom?
The light for caliber 130gr ttsx shot better than all the other barnes weights at a variety of velocities? That's an interesting rifle you must have there.
Lastly, I never mentioned drop as important. Not sure why you are mentioning it. You remind me of my students in grade 4 that I try to teach the concept of borrowing in subtraction. Some just don't get it no matter how many ways you show them. I will try one last time.
If you set yourself a minimum expansion velocity of 1800 fps that will determine how FAR you can shoot your animal. If you start with more velocity it means that you can shoot an animal FURTHER away and still have you bullet impact with 1800fps. It's rather simple. And any less wind drift is always desirable. That's also rather simple.
I would also like to hear your experiences with the 200 and how they aren't reliable as you stated. Please detail what happened.
I would take a stevens rifle hunting just the same as a remington etc any day of the week. But that's just me.
EDIT: You're 210 VLD speeds are off. The 300 rum will do them at 3150 and add 3%(lol) to get 30-378wby speeds.
Also here is a "custom" rifle on a stevens action (but it's not cause it's a stevens right?). Interesting how someone with that high a standard in accuracy and reliability would use something inferior and unreliable like a stevens.
http://www.6mmbr.com/gunweek075.html (this is only to show that the action can not be terrible if I can be used in such a build. Not that "custom" rifles are better than stock remingtons.
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And add another % or two for the Lazzeroni.
That's all good. I have no illusions that the 30/378 is the fastest out there. 30/416 would be faster and certainly anything based on the 408 cheytac as well. If you have the cash to build a custom rifle costing lots of money paying a bit more for brass shouldn't even be a consideration. Especially if it's good brass that you get alot of life out of. I read an article of a guy that was using a 30 cal 338lm improved and he was getting 20+ firings per case.
You are still not making any sense. You started yipping about how I should accept the stevens 200 as just as good as another rifle and then you somehow got to custom rifles...
Try using some comprehension skills here:
If I loaded the 130gr TTSX to 3400fps, no animal or target would ever notice. So yeah, small changes in velocity are insignificant in that regard. But the 130gr TTSX shoot the best in my rifle at about 3500fps, so why not use the best shooting. If I loaded them to 3600 in a 300WM, I still don't think I would see a difference.
Maybe you can figure out this time what I actually said abotu the 130gr TTSX?
If we are going to compare 2 cartridges, may as well include all the information including drop, eh?
Yes, it's very simple to see that based on 1800fps expansion, the difference in how far you can shoot an animal with a 30-378 compared to a 300RUM is measured in a few feet, and that wind drift difference at 1000 yards is only 3".
.
Failure to feed. Failure to extract. Failure to eject. Safety difficult to operate, especially with gloves on in cold temperatures. Safety makes loud CLACK when switched off. Bolt release flange getting caught on clothing. Both rifles I had exhibited these traits from time to time. Not a horrible rifle, but not 100% reliable by any means. I have discussed it on various threads on CGN a few years ago. Then there is other stuff that makes them less attractive- Hockey puck recoil pad that offers very little recoil padding, blind magazine that seems prone to hanging up, plastic triggerguard, hollow and loud tupperware stock, poor finish etc. But the rifle is $300 so what do you expect?
The Stevens 200 is a good deal for someone who wants a budget rifle and is going to be near a camp or home with a spare rifle, but as I said, it sure isn't going to go with me on a fly in hunt in northern BC.
Yes, that's you. Not me.
I just ballparked the numbers by looking at a loading manual. It's not really that important for intraweb discussion. But here you go, we can chuckle some more.
3150 gives us 1780fps at 1000 with 56" drift
@3% more, 3244 gives us 1845fps and 54" drift
So, at 1000 yards, the 300RUM and 30-378 are within 75fps and 2" of each other.
Now you are going to tell me again how the 30-378 will kill the animal deader than the 300RUM?
Back to custom rifles again???? And you are trying to somehow relate MysticPrecisions custom rifle that he introduced on CGN a few years ago to back up your position that an out of the box Stevens 200 is just as good as any other rifle ??
Try to remember that you were talking about the out of the box Stevens, not custom rifles. You were trying to make a point relating brass to Stevens rifles, and your point was completely silly, so you switched to custom Stevens rifles....which is even sillier on a Weatherby thread!
You should start a thread on custom Stevens rifles. At least that might make some sense.
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You are still not making any sense. You started yipping about how I should accept the stevens 200 as just as good as another rifle and then you somehow got to custom rifles...
Try using some comprehension skills here:
If I loaded the 130gr TTSX to 3400fps, no animal or target would ever notice. So yeah, small changes in velocity are insignificant in that regard. But the 130gr TTSX shoot the best in my rifle at about 3500fps, so why not use the best shooting. If I loaded them to 3600 in a 300WM, I still don't think I would see a difference.
Maybe you can figure out this time what I actually said abotu the 130gr TTSX?
If we are going to compare 2 cartridges, may as well include all the information including drop, eh?
Yes, it's very simple to see that based on 1800fps expansion, the difference in how far you can shoot an animal with a 30-378 compared to a 300RUM is measured in a few feet, and that wind drift difference at 1000 yards is only 3".
.
Failure to feed. Failure to extract. Failure to eject. Safety difficult to operate, especially with gloves on in cold temperatures. Safety makes loud CLACK when switched off. Bolt release flange getting caught on clothing. Hockey puck recoil pad that offers very little recoil padding. Both rifles I had exhibited these traits from time to time. Not a horrible rifle, but not 100% reliable by any means.
The Stevens 200 is a good deal for someone who wants a budget rifle and is going to be near a camp or home with a spare rifle, but as I said, it sure isn't going to go with me on a fly in hunt in northern BC.
Yes, that's you. Not me.
I just ballparked the numbers by looking at a loading manual. It's not really that important for intraweb discussion.
Back to custom rifles again???? And you are trying to somehow relate MysticPrecisions custom rifle that he introduced on CGN a few years ago to back up your position that an out of the box Stevens 200 is just as good as any other rifle ??
Try to remember that you were talking about the out of the box Stevens, not custom rifles. You were trying to make a point relating brass to Stevens rifles, and your point was completely silly, so you switched to custom Stevens rifles....which is even sillier on a Weatherby thread!
You should start a thread on custom Stevens rifles. At least that might make some sense.
Going the extra mile here just like with my kids but I'm thinking it's a lost cause.
You stated that a rifle built on a 200 stevens wasn't considered a custom rifle. I pointed out to you what a custom rifle is. If a rifle is built to specifications that you choose then it's custom. It doesn't matter what action the person chooses to build said rifle.
You didn't mention anything about trying 150gr, 165gr, or 168gr tsx when you spoke of your 130gr ttsx load. You only seemed to be delighted that it was going very fast. Still, an interesting rifle.
Since the drop is compensated by scope adjustments and you know how far said target is it doesn't matter for the sake of comparing MV of two different cartridges. You will hit 1k with a 308 just as easy as with a 300 mag. Drop is different but where the higher MV shines is wind drift and killing range. The only things important are wind drift and how far out said fps is maintained. Mentioning drop does nothing for explaining why 120fps matters.
3" is the difference between hitting what you want and not. How is less wind drift of any kind not important?
The difference in kill range between a 300 ultra and a 30/378 with a 120fps difference is right about 80 yards. That's about as far as most people shoot their deer at. Not a few feet. Check your numbers.
You again missed what I wrote in brackets next to the link. That example merely states that the action is VERY GOOD. It is such a good platform that people use them for customs. People don't use junk for customs. If one follows this through all the way then that must mean that a 200 hunting rifle has a VERY GOOD action and it should be a VERY GOOD hunting rifle. Make sense?
You seem to have had some terrible experiences with your rifles. If they are so bad it's funny how the interweb isn't full of people bashing them. They surely sell lots of them. OTOH the interweb is full of people bashing the cheap remingtons. The internet is full of people posting their opinions on said rifles and it's usually easy to figure out if something is junk or not. The 243 stevens I had for a while was in no way inferior to the 243 700 youth model my wife has and it was $200+ cheaper.
- Location
- Calgary, AB
Never worried too much about the Weatherby accuracy guarantee. Any that I have owned including the Vanguard have done MOA or less without any alterations.
The guarantee shows how confident they are in their product. A 1-1/2" guarantee doesn't show a lot of confidence. My two Mark Vs made the 1-1/2", but neither would consistently shoot sub moa, even after much load development.Any of my factory 700s were more accurate, for half the cost. On the other hand, I have seen much more consistent accuracy from the Howa made Vanguards. I for one believe that the Vanguard offers great value for the price. And even though the MOA is lower priced than the Mark V, it still offers a better accuracy guarantee than the Mark V.Why do you suppose that Weathery offers a better accuracy guarantee for the Vanguard MOA, than they do for the higher priced Mark V?
.
No, I didn't say that. You don't seem to be able to comprehend much. You sure you are a teacher?
There was no mention of other weight bullets because you inquired only about the 130gr TTSX bullets. Again, you show poor comprehension skills. What are you teaching those kids?
Yes, I said on the first post that :
This is getting to be a pattern!
I ran some new numbers for you --at 1000 yards they are within 75 fps and 2". Wow. Some difference. That deer is gonna be WAAAY deader.
No, it doesn't make sense at all. You haven't made much sense this entire thread. You are confusing taking an action and building a long range rifle with an out of the box general hunting rifle. The Stevens 200 out of the box is a BUDGET hunting rifle. Not a VERY GOOD hunting rifle.
Most people on the intraweb that own a Stevens are happy with them, and for $300, they should be. Doesn't make them a excellent rifle, it makes them a accurate $300 rifle, and that sure isn't too bad.
Terrible experiences with the Stevens? No. Less than perfect? Absolutely. Missed a couple of opportunities on coyotes because of the safety and the failure to feed. Not the end of the world, but definitely makes a person not want to go anywhere harsh with a Stevens 200.
Anybody with a reasonable amount of rifle knowledge can sit down with a Stevens 200 and come to the same conclusions that I have. You think that the Stevens 200 is just as good as any other rifle, and that's great that you can be satisfied with a budget rifle. Not me.
