Premature Norky Barrel Wear ?

redivivus

redivivus

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It appears that I may have worn out the barrel of my Norinco M4 after ~ 11,800 rounds as my groupings are starting to become very irregular and erratic. This is a 2-3 MOA gun at it's peak (I use iron sights) and recently, I have noticed that it struggles to hold even 4-5 MOA consistently :eek:

The barrel looks shiny as ever and from what I can gather there are visually no imperfections (pitting, scarring, marring) at either the throat or the muzzle end. The flash hider's crown looks fine with no scuffs. I swapped out the standard rear sight with a MI unit with the same result. The minor bits and pieces all seem to be in order with no undue scars or stress marks. Trigger is sublime. Thee is no wiggle anywhere that would contribute to lower accuracy. I've tried swapping the hand guards and that was no help either but did add to the coolness factor :p

Note that I use strictly factory loads and have never 'dumped a mag' so to speak. In saying so, it is one of my defacto 'range guns' as it just just a hoot to shoot!

So, is this fairly standard as I would have though the barrel to last a while longer ? Has anyone else had this happen to them ? Are my symptoms consistent with barrel wear or should I be looking elsewhere ?

If it is indeed the barrel, I think I'll make this into a mid-length carbine. Any leads where I could find an accurate mid-length 16" barrel in Canada (other than ATRS) ?
 
Have you tried using some copper remover when cleaning the bore? Just a thought that it may be a build up of copper in the bore.
Will be watching this thread.
 
fiorgobas said:
Have you tried using some copper remover when cleaning the bore? Just a thought that it may be a build up of copper in the bore.
Will be watching this thread.
Click to expand...

Yes, I have used copper remover, Hoppes #9 Solven and Cleaner, CLP and even a bottle of magic bore cleaner (name escapes me at the moment). Like I said, the barrel shines like a mirror, but accuracy has been degrading rapidly.
 
Have you cleaned out the inside of the flash hider? Often a wall of carbon can build inside it and start tumbling rounds and reducing accuracy.
 
With 12,000 rounds through it, it is near about it's serviceable life.
Get a new barrel or sell off the gun.
 
CarbineOne said:
Have you cleaned out the inside of the flash hider? Often a wall of carbon can build inside it and start tumbling rounds and reducing accuracy.
Click to expand...

An excellent point as it is often overlooked during cleaning (and I have been guilty of it too). I just inspected mine and the inside looks to be clean after my last range trip. Thank you for bringing it up :)
 
beltfed said:
With 12,000 rounds through it, it is near about it's serviceable life.
Get a new barrel or sell off the gun.
Click to expand...

A conclusion that I am leaning on as well. What concerns me is that it is wearing (if that what this is) after only 12k rounds. My expectation, based on what I have read, is that a chrome plated GI spec barrel should last a whole lot longer. Hence my query. Is barrel wear rate proportional to quality ?

No issues with buying a new one, it's the reasoning behind it that has me curious.
 
What concerns me is that it is wearing (if that what this is) after only 12k rounds. My expectation, based on what I have read, is that a chrome plated GI spec barrel should last a whole lot longer. Hence my query. Is barrel wear rate proportional to quality ?
Click to expand...

Do ya think? You buy a cheapo communist made rifle and then are surprised it hasn't lasted as long as a N American made rifle that would cost 2-3 times as much?

Strikes me as being BLINDINGLY obvious.
 
redivivus said:
A conclusion that I am leaning on as well. What concerns me is that it is wearing (if that what this is) after only 12k rounds. My expectation, based on what I have read, is that a chrome plated GI spec barrel should last a whole lot longer. Hence my query. Is barrel wear rate proportional to quality ?

No issues with buying a new one, it's the reasoning behind it that has me curious.
Click to expand...

You should be able to tell if it's badly worn by looking at the throat.
 
Suputin said:
Do ya think? You buy a cheapo communist made rifle and then are surprised it hasn't lasted as long as a N American made rifle that would cost 2-3 times as much?

Strikes me as being BLINDINGLY obvious.
Click to expand...

I'm afraid I don't support your conclusion as we have not yet established what constitutes an acceptable wear rate for M4 barrels across the various manufacturers - regardless of origin. What, in your opinion, is the definition of a worn barrel - how much loss in accuracy and/or consistency is to be considered within acceptable operating parameters ?

Are you postulating that all barrels installed in North American "made" AR-15s are fully manufactured in North America ? And that this automatically equates to a longer barrel life - presumable two to three times longer - due to simply the manufacturing country ?

Could you please point me towards comparison studies that compare barrel wear across manufacturers and manufacturing countries and support your hypothesis ?

As an example, my 16" LMT M4 is at ~9000 rounds and should sometime early next year reach the same 12k landmark. THAT in my mind would be a form of comparative evaluation.

I am hoping we do get a healthy and informative discussion going based on facts and experience as this does not seem to be a topic of regular discussion and we can all benefit greatly by the knowledge. So do feel free to contribute!
 
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beltfed said:
With 12,000 rounds through it, it is near about it's serviceable life.
Get a new barrel or sell off the gun.
Click to expand...

Be sure to list it on the EE as lightly used, great condition, for $720.

quite honestly, 11k rounds, I was quite surprised by that. makes me re-think the whole nork thing (for price)

How are the rest of the parts holding up?
 
There are a lot of match rifle shooters who baby their barrels and shoot tailored loads that pull the barrels off their Sprinfield M1A's at 5,000 rounds. While this is a different situation, those shooters feel that the barrel has served it's useful precision shooting life by 5,000 rounds. If I'm not mistaken, the 'reject' standard for new military M16 rifles in the US is somewhere around 5 inches at 100 yards gross accuracy (they look at the group differently and have standards for dispersion by hit location on target, but functionally, assuming it's centred the group should be around 5 inches).

As far as "rethinking" purchasing a $700 gun because it loses accuracy after shooting just $4800 dollars worth of ammunition, that just seems odd to me. 12,000 rounds is a lot more ammunition than the average Norc shooter will put through his rifle in 2 lifetimes. The OP isn't the average Norc shooter (the presence of an LMT in the household pretty much proves this) he's a fairly serious shooter who has a lot of time behind the gun. On a side note, OP -apart from the current accuracy thing, what is your opinion of the Norc, I haven't heard of too many people with that kind of mileage on one.
 
the young gun said:
To me thats really the great thing about norinco, shoot it till its clapped out, then buy a brand new one and still come in at less money for the two of them, then a new "brand name" rifle.
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ya, ^, this. Wowsers, that's a lot of shooting! Good job; buy a second one...

...just want to second the note of cleaning the copper out of your barrel; it can take a heckuva lot of work. Butch's Bore Shine is also a good product to strip that k-rap out of your piece, FWIW...
 
Aren't the Norc's barrels chrome lined/plated?


redivivus said:
A conclusion that I am leaning on as well. What concerns me is that it is wearing (if that what this is) after only 12k rounds. My expectation, based on what I have read, is that a chrome plated GI spec barrel should last a whole lot longer. Hence my query. Is barrel wear rate proportional to quality ?

No issues with buying a new one, it's the reasoning behind it that has me curious.
Click to expand...
 
The Swiss Arms ammo test lower on this page shows that different ammo groups differently. Is it possible you have an ammo lot that does not like your rifle?

I was testing my new Norc M4gery at the range with a variety of handloads, to see what it liked, and discovered I had forgotten to bring some commercial ammo as a control group.

The fellow next to me gave me 10 rounds of Winchester 55gr white box ammo to shoot. It shot terrible. About 5" or so.

AMMOWIN55.jpg


My handloads grouped less than half that size.
ammosr.jpg


I am wondering if it is an ammo issue, rather than the rifle?

But, 11,000 rounds is certainly enough to be the end of the barrel, although I would have expected more. barrels are cheap and easy to change.
 
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