BrassOnRails
Member
- Location
- Pickering, ON
The HK 770 is a great semi....looks are more into the hunting category but its the most accurate semi 308 I've ever handled. Its the civilian version of the HK G3...same action I believe?
Non restricted designated marksman semi-automatic rifles?
- Thread starter Xiao Xiong
- Start date
I know you're right because I've looked around, but I am curious about this.
My understanding is the SR-25 is based on the AR-10, not the AR-15. The legislation singles out AR-15 and derivatives. I could find no mention of AR-10 there. The SR-25 does share a lot of parts with the AR-15, but with a different receiver.
Moreover, the SR-25 is a semi-automatic weapon, and is commonly provisioned with a barrel well over the minimum length.
I don't really understand how it wound up restricted. I guess just another one of those arbitrary and stupid things?
The current AR10a2 is considered a variant of the AR15 rifle since the current rifle is based more off the AR15 architecture than the predecessor. As a result it's restricted by name. Which completely sucks.
As for the SR-25. There are also Armalite AR10 rifles that have been used by Canadian military for this role. The Armalite AR10 rifles are priced a lot more reasonably. The hard part however is finding one.
Also what are you planning on using this rifle for? From your posts the M14 is probably the way to go. You can modify it etc to get decent accuracy. Now if you want the most accurate semi auto DM rifle for a reasonable price then you want an AR10 or AR10 type rifle. They are generally 1/2 moa rifles with match ammo and good optics. It's also very easy to mount optics on them. For actual shooting these are the way to go. Even though they are restricted they are hard to beat. The AR rifles with match barrels, and match triggers are the exception to the rule regarding semi autos not being as accurate as bolt actions. You can get very very close to the most accurate bolt guns with one of these rifles.
If you're willing to up your budget to 35K the Walther W2000 is another option.
It's on my someday list. Another option too in non restricted is the Russion SVT40. A Sniper version will run you about $400, then you need the scope and mount. You're looking at another $500 or so if you go with replicas. But overall I'd say the M14 is the easiest for you to modify to your needs.
I will mostly just use it for target shooting, but my wife will probably take it hunting once or twice a year, so "general use".
Yes the M14 is the leading contender if I decide to go 7.62, which I am still mulling.
I might instead start out with 5.56 in which case I am leaning towards Swiss Arms. The tradeoff I hate is that if I chose a different gun I could get the 10 round pistol mags and I don't believe the SA support that, and the NR guns that do don't QUITE fit my purpose. So I am in a bit of a bind over that.
In reality if this goes well I expect eventually to own both a 5.56 and 7.62 and in one way the question is which to start with. I am thinking it makes sense to start 5.56 but I have not made up my mind yet. I want to limit myself to buying these things once a year, so that my wallet will still have some money some of the time.
Yes the M14 is the leading contender if I decide to go 7.62, which I am still mulling.
I might instead start out with 5.56 in which case I am leaning towards Swiss Arms. The tradeoff I hate is that if I chose a different gun I could get the 10 round pistol mags and I don't believe the SA support that, and the NR guns that do don't QUITE fit my purpose. So I am in a bit of a bind over that.
In reality if this goes well I expect eventually to own both a 5.56 and 7.62 and in one way the question is which to start with. I am thinking it makes sense to start 5.56 but I have not made up my mind yet. I want to limit myself to buying these things once a year, so that my wallet will still have some money some of the time.
The SAPR will be very expensive. I'm guessing over 5K.
There is a target version of the PE-90. It has flip up back up sights. It's perfect for putting optics on it.
The QBU 88 has always interested me. But I doubt it's the rifle the Swiss Arms is. It's a rifle I would get later for a collection rather than as a primary. That being said it's a neat collector rifle and would no doubt be a lot of fun.
The PE90 doesn't support it. However NEA makes a lower for that rifle that uses Stanag ie AR mags. So it is a consideration.
XCR is another consideration.
This one also takes AR mags but it's not primarily a DM rifle, although the Israelies due have a version that is. Plus in it's military form it's full auto, while the Civi one is semi only. "Tavor" Tar21.
This:
http://www.northeasternarms.com/platforms.php?plat=swiss&part=LWR0001
Does that make it restricted??? Any other downsides to using that lower? If that works, then that solves one problem with the Swiss Arms.
Or Bushmaster ACR, which has got some pretty good reviews here for accuracy, after people got over some initial quality control issues. I am also digging into SL-8 to see if I can find any evidence of the military version ever having been locked to semi, as it's otherwise interesting as well. I like the idea of the ACR/XCR but they are not "field tested" the way that the Swiss, M14, or SL-8 are. If I'm going to give up on something, I'd rather give up on "was fielded semi" than pick something that was never fielded.
- Location
- Montréal, Québec
When I think of DMRs, I think of 2 things:
1) M14 variants
2) SCAR 17 (semi) with 20" barrel
I'd take the SCAR but the M14 seems to be the only option available.
1) M14 variants
2) SCAR 17 (semi) with 20" barrel
I'd take the SCAR but the M14 seems to be the only option available.
A real DMR will be SR25, LMT MWS or SAPR in the more current thinking.
Or go with an accurized AR like what the USMC and the US special forces did back couple years ago with enhanced optic, match barrel and free floating handguards.
All others are basicly just fluffs - regular military rifles with a 4X sight (like TAVOR). When everyone got an aimpoint, somehow the guy got the ACOG becomes the DMR. So I guess the entire USMC squad will be DMR when their M16A4 are mounti g ACOGs???
I know people are pumping for swiss arms - but any rifles without free floating handguards are automatically out of the game for being a modern DMR.
And TAVOR is out of the game - guys with TAVORs got DESTROYED every time in SR by people with C7 and AR15. Accuracy is not up to snuff for being a modern DMR. It is a rifle good enough for infantry work.
Or go with an accurized AR like what the USMC and the US special forces did back couple years ago with enhanced optic, match barrel and free floating handguards.
All others are basicly just fluffs - regular military rifles with a 4X sight (like TAVOR). When everyone got an aimpoint, somehow the guy got the ACOG becomes the DMR. So I guess the entire USMC squad will be DMR when their M16A4 are mounti g ACOGs???
I know people are pumping for swiss arms - but any rifles without free floating handguards are automatically out of the game for being a modern DMR.
And TAVOR is out of the game - guys with TAVORs got DESTROYED every time in SR by people with C7 and AR15. Accuracy is not up to snuff for being a modern DMR. It is a rifle good enough for infantry work.
Yeah, greentips, if they were non-restricted the SR-25, or the LMT (an SR-25 variant right?) would be my choice too. I'm hoping SAPR will come out non restricted, though price tag on that one is a bit hefty.
In light of that Swiss seems like a good choice, as it's non restricted.
What would you suggest? There are no non-restricted AR's. Maybe the ACR or XCR? However those are not proven in the field the way the true military guns have been. Maybe SL-8?
Maybe we'll get lucky and SCAR will be non restricted... not holding my breath.
In light of that Swiss seems like a good choice, as it's non restricted.
What would you suggest? There are no non-restricted AR's. Maybe the ACR or XCR? However those are not proven in the field the way the true military guns have been. Maybe SL-8?
Maybe we'll get lucky and SCAR will be non restricted... not holding my breath.
I doubt the OP needs a free floated rifle being a new shooter (no offence meant here).
The whole freefloat thing is overblown IMHO. The SEI Crazy Horse shoots MOA so does the Swiss with the right ammo. My C7 is not free floated either and shoots 1". I have 70 year old Mausers that shoot 1". This whole sub MOA obsession for a semi auto means nothing in the field as only an expert shooter benefits from it (trained marksman).
When used on the bench with rest, rearbag ect, it is a different story, the shooter is out of the equation for the most part.
The whole freefloat thing is overblown IMHO. The SEI Crazy Horse shoots MOA so does the Swiss with the right ammo. My C7 is not free floated either and shoots 1". I have 70 year old Mausers that shoot 1". This whole sub MOA obsession for a semi auto means nothing in the field as only an expert shooter benefits from it (trained marksman).
When used on the bench with rest, rearbag ect, it is a different story, the shooter is out of the equation for the most part.
I don't doubt your groups, but I think the main advantage of a free float setup is consistent point of impact regardless of how the rifle is supported. DMRs will be shot off a bipod as well as off the mag, resting on the handguard, standing etc.
I don't have a Swiss Arms rifle like the PE90 so it's at least second hand info, but I have heard there is a significant shift in point of impact (several inches at 100 yards) using a bipod versus off the mag. Perhaps an owner can verify / refute this.
My bolt gun (Remington) and AR (HK) both have free floating barrels. It helps in some situations and certainly doesn't hurt to have.
The SAPR has a shorter, stouter barrel compared to the PE90 so perhaps it is a non-issue there even it is an issue with the PE90. I hope so since I am wait listed for the SAPR now.
scottm - I 100% agree with your point that a free floated barrel is more consitent not being affected by pressure on the barrel.
My point was that it is not a neccessary feature on a semi rifle to achieve effective groups. This raises the question of how accurate does such a rifle have to be? I feel 1 to 1.5MOA is quite acceptable for as semi out to 600M.
If the barrel is anchored solid to the stock the shooter must learn to apply consistent pressure to the forend (support hand, sling, bipod) to achieve that consistent point of impact at longer ranges.
The PE90 - Yes bipod pressure will affect bullet impact, when using its bipod care must be taken not to load the bipod. I'm getting better at this the more I use my Swiss, but I prefer to shoot off the mag in the prone and hold just in front of the mag when sitting, kneeling, standing. This way there is no pressure on the barrel and it hits consistently.
I mentioned this because I do not want the OP, as a new shooter and gun enthusiast, to get the impression that if his rifle wont do 1/2 inch groups from the bench its no good.
What a new shooter needs is a decently accurate rifle and put his main focus on training/coaching to develop his marksmanship skills to become an effective rifleman. An X-thousand dollar tackdriver will not teach him much at beginner level.
My point was that it is not a neccessary feature on a semi rifle to achieve effective groups. This raises the question of how accurate does such a rifle have to be? I feel 1 to 1.5MOA is quite acceptable for as semi out to 600M.
If the barrel is anchored solid to the stock the shooter must learn to apply consistent pressure to the forend (support hand, sling, bipod) to achieve that consistent point of impact at longer ranges.
The PE90 - Yes bipod pressure will affect bullet impact, when using its bipod care must be taken not to load the bipod. I'm getting better at this the more I use my Swiss, but I prefer to shoot off the mag in the prone and hold just in front of the mag when sitting, kneeling, standing. This way there is no pressure on the barrel and it hits consistently.
I mentioned this because I do not want the OP, as a new shooter and gun enthusiast, to get the impression that if his rifle wont do 1/2 inch groups from the bench its no good.
What a new shooter needs is a decently accurate rifle and put his main focus on training/coaching to develop his marksmanship skills to become an effective rifleman. An X-thousand dollar tackdriver will not teach him much at beginner level.
Well, if you do not have free floating handguard, your POI changes depends on how you shoot the rifle and how much pressure is put on the handguar.d.
Does it matters - yes. Propping a C7 on a barricade by the handguard can change the elevation by as much as 3MOA. Shooting the darn thing by holding on the handguard can change it by 9MOA at 100m if the shooter gets on an aggressive stance like you see on the these magpul videos. It is enough to miss a person at 100m for chest shot and turn a chest shot into a throat shot at 50m.
The same thing with the Swiss arms. As much as 3MOA change if it is shot on the bipod, and the changes depend on the different amount of pressure being applied on the barrel.
Without consistent POI, grouping is meaningless and just an academic study. What is the point of having a rifle that groups but it can only shoot in one particular way, or that it will shoot into some other places when the shooter changes the firing position or supporting method?
Yes, I know it does (post#76). That's why most of the guys myself included shoot off the mag when prone and use a mag well hold in the other positions with the C7.
I have shot Garands and M1A's with sling for years and the key is consitent pressure on the forend every time you sling up.
My aim here is not to ruffle feathers. Free floating is a nice feature to have.
I am just saying it is not absolutely necessary on a rifle. If a shooter learns how to correct for forend pressure with sling or avoiding it alltogether he will not have signifficant POI shift problems.
There has been plenty of real world engagement without issue from Vietnam to present using the M14 platform by the US and Israeli's and the SVD has taken down more than its fair share in conflicts.
Neither of these are free floated nor are they true precision rifles (especially not the SVD).
For what its worth I am not a fan of the shooting bench, that type of shooting does not transfer well into the field.
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Ar180shooter
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Ottawa, ON
Agreed with the bi-pod part about the SA. I don't even use my bi-pod, and have removed it from the rifle. I use a magazine rest or hold it right in front of the magazine. It will shoot sub MOA at 100 and 200 yards, and shooting accurately out to 300 yards is no problem.
I also agree that maybe buying an expensive tack driver off the bat might not be the greatest idea. I've spent dozens of hours and many thousands of rounds behind rimfires developing the shooting skills that (IMHO) allow me to shoot as well as I do (and I don't want to sound like I'm blowing my own horn here, I know that there are many guys out there that would make me look like the amateur I am in the marksmanship game... :redface). Anyway... I just want to emphasize the importance of getting some good trigger time behind a rimfire (well, it doesn't have to be a rimfire, but I recommend it because it's the most economic way to develop yourself as a rifleman), and developing the base skills required to bee a good shot.
