The French 1873 revolver was designed to use a healed bullet, I would not recommend shooting standard .451 or .452 bullets.
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The French 1873 revolver was designed to use a healed bullet, I would not recommend shooting standard .451 or .452 bullets.
Well 1873 french revolvers that are set up correct to shoot 45 acp have the chamber throats enlarged to .452 
Thats if there done right. otherwise the presures can spike like crazy.
Best to check the bores to tho most seem to be in the .451 to .453 range that i have seen some are bigger.
that all needs to be checked by a good gunsmith some bores need work to..
Any gun altered to shoot something else must be done so in the correct way or its just no good.
Back in the great wars the french used to just use a file and or drill bit to enlarge the chambers of 1873s and then shoot hardball 45 acp ammo thru them,,, thats the type of 1873 to avoid big time.
Thats if there done right. otherwise the presures can spike like crazy.
Best to check the bores to tho most seem to be in the .451 to .453 range that i have seen some are bigger.
that all needs to be checked by a good gunsmith some bores need work to..
Any gun altered to shoot something else must be done so in the correct way or its just no good.
Back in the great wars the french used to just use a file and or drill bit to enlarge the chambers of 1873s and then shoot hardball 45 acp ammo thru them,,, thats the type of 1873 to avoid big time.
That SAA colt shoots 2.5 inch groups at 25 yds all the time right to point of aim.
It depends on the ammo to and the chamber throats matching the bores dia ect.
I have alot of Antique handguns that shoot great a Schofield that also shoots under 3 inch groups at 25 yds with trail boss reloads.
Accuracy is another reason to get into reloading.
There it is. Thats what I've been waiting for. <Just how good do the good ones shoot?.>
Being fairly new to antiques, but not to reloading, the challenge is twofold.
Reasonable accuracy, and, somewhat close to the point of aim.
3 to 4 inch groups at 25yds, 3" left, 4" high from POA., so far.
Starting to think thats not too shabby from a 120+year old hinge frame.
As far as antique calibers go, my two favourite are the 44 Russian and the 45 Schofield. Starline makes brass for both and both take standard cast bullets that are used in the 44 special and the 45 Colt. Both cartridges have some good serious punch.
There it is. Thats what I've been waiting for. <Just how good do the good ones shoot?.>
Being fairly new to antiques, but not to reloading, the challenge is twofold.
Reasonable accuracy, and, somewhat close to the point of aim.
3 to 4 inch groups at 25yds, 3" left, 4" high from POA., so far.
Starting to think thats not too shabby from a 120+year old hinge frame.
My Schofield shoots just as good almost at 45 yds as 25 and to me thats whats important to be good at 25 is one thing but to be tight at 45 to 50 is harder and to point of aim which it shoots.
I got lucky with the schofield its got a newer cylinder and 7 inch barrel installed in and old frame but still thats impresive.
Keith was shooting old SAA colts at targets that were hundreds of yards away and hitting them, game hunting to.
I cant say enough to anyone getting into antiques and reloading get Elmer Keiths book Six guns.
you can find a reprinted copy on ebay most times for under $30
Great winter reading lots to learn and the stories are great to.
I had a custom Remy 1875 i sold that gun shoots 3.5 inch groups at 50 yds off a rest with the right loads.
That was in 45 schofield and with and orignal twist gain rifled barrel 7 inchs long with trail boss loads and a keith type 250 gr SWC doing + 850 FPS.
Right on target to no left or right.
Yeah, POWER is the next step up for a 'still learning' caretaker of antiquities.
'Prolly just as well the big boomers cost what they do, so's us poorer neophytes get plenty 'o time to mess about with the steep part of the learning curve, ... casting, pressures, etc., .... long before the wallet can take the hit.
Three and a half at 50!, holy cow Dingus .... that sure raises the bar a notch or two
Damn, do I love this forum!. The info from all you old hands is priceless.
Sorry for drifting it off topic a bit, OP ..... the enthusiasm makes it hard to keep contained to your question.
GB has worked for me(1'nce). Some do ship international, or can be 'encouraged' to do so. USPS seems the "best way" shipper.
The antique dealers are the safest bet, but the auction gave me a bargain.
QUOTE=dingus;6244568]My Schofield shoots just as good almost at 45 yds as 25 and to me thats whats important to be good at 25 is one thing but to be tight at 45 to 50 is harder and to point of aim which it shoots.
I got lucky with the schofield its got a newer cylinder and 7 inch barrel installed in and old frame but still thats impresive.
Keith was shooting old SAA colts at targets that were hundreds of yards away and hitting them, game hunting to.
I cant say enough to anyone getting into antiques and reloading get Elmer Keiths book Six guns.
you can find a reprinted copy on ebay most times for under $30
Great winter reading lots to learn and the stories are great to.
I had a custom Remy 1875 i sold that gun shoots 3.5 inch groups at 50 yds off a rest with the right loads.
That was in 45 schofield and with and orignal twist gain rifled barrel 7 inchs long with trail boss loads and a keith type 250 gr SWC doing + 850 FPS.
Right on target to no left or right.[/QUOTE]
Damn, do I love this forum!. The info from all you old hands is priceless.
Sorry for drifting it off topic a bit, OP ..... the enthusiasm makes it hard to keep contained to your question.
GB has worked for me(1'nce). Some do ship international, or can be 'encouraged' to do so. USPS seems the "best way" shipper.
The antique dealers are the safest bet, but the auction gave me a bargain.
QUOTE=dingus;6244568]My Schofield shoots just as good almost at 45 yds as 25 and to me thats whats important to be good at 25 is one thing but to be tight at 45 to 50 is harder and to point of aim which it shoots.
I got lucky with the schofield its got a newer cylinder and 7 inch barrel installed in and old frame but still thats impresive.
Keith was shooting old SAA colts at targets that were hundreds of yards away and hitting them, game hunting to.
I cant say enough to anyone getting into antiques and reloading get Elmer Keiths book Six guns.
you can find a reprinted copy on ebay most times for under $30
Great winter reading lots to learn and the stories are great to.
I had a custom Remy 1875 i sold that gun shoots 3.5 inch groups at 50 yds off a rest with the right loads.
That was in 45 schofield and with and orignal twist gain rifled barrel 7 inchs long with trail boss loads and a keith type 250 gr SWC doing + 850 FPS.
Right on target to no left or right.[/QUOTE]
Thats off a bench rest not freehand.
That was the best most accurate antique handgun i had.
Ive had a few close to that but that 1875 was a ace.
I shoot mostly off a rest to start with to see how good the gun is then shoot freehand once i know where its shooting.
That was the best most accurate antique handgun i had.
Ive had a few close to that but that 1875 was a ace.
I shoot mostly off a rest to start with to see how good the gun is then shoot freehand once i know where its shooting.
Remember when you posted that '75 on the EE, good thing no-one offered to buy my truck out from under me right about then, or I'da been a well armed pedestrian right about now.
Uncanny accurate, no doubt you miss her.
Edit; Trailboss and Keith's in a Schofield .... gonna try that one day.
Uncanny accurate, no doubt you miss her.
Edit; Trailboss and Keith's in a Schofield .... gonna try that one day.
Shush up!
I've dealt with Dennis Fulmer & have found him to be fair & accurate with his descriptions. But you guys won't like his guns... Trust me! There too old.....Dingus has given some very good advice here that could save years of trial and error. I too would suggest reading sixguns by Keith as he really did test the limits of the calibers of the antique period in a way few others ever documented.
Keith tested the antique calibers to some extent, but he did not test too many of the actual antique revolvers. There was quite a difference in the state of metallurgic knowledge between 1890 compared to the 1930s.
Several of those older cartridges can be loaded to much greater pressure levels for use in newer guns. That doesn't mean they are safe in the antiques.
The .44 special was introduced about 1907 so there isn't much chance that an antique revolver (pre-1898) would have been originally chambered for .44 special.
As a rough rule of thumb if you keep the pressure down to the saami maximum for cartridges available at that time the revolver was manufactured you should be good. That would be in the 12,000-13,000 psi range.
For instance, Keith loaded .44 special to .44 mag performance levels, but the revolvers he used were newer production firearms for the most part manufactured long after the antique era had ended. We should not infer that those loads are reasonable for use in an antique made in the 1890s or earlier.
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Keith did push the limits theres no doubt about that.
there is info in his book about certin antiques that can handle his 2400 loads tho, its just not alot of info and hard to find if you dont read the book cover to cover, he claims that a SAA Colt and a 1878 DA colt both solid frame guns can handle his 2400 loads he loads BP in them as well tho.
I dont load my stuff as hot as keith but i have tryed his 2400 loads Reduced in a 45 schofield case in both SAA Colts 1875 remys and in DA 1878 Colts and they do well but crikey i would not want to shoot them loads all day and only in guns with newer cylinders would i even try that so i dont recomend that at all.
but no signs of excess presure in the cases or primers so he is right about the powder being simlar to BP in presure curve.
But he warns about over loads to, even has a chapter showing handguns blowin up and what caused this to happen so in general its good reading.
I agree with Jethunter to be safe to keep the loads down to them 12000 to 13000 Psi range tho.
there is info in his book about certin antiques that can handle his 2400 loads tho, its just not alot of info and hard to find if you dont read the book cover to cover, he claims that a SAA Colt and a 1878 DA colt both solid frame guns can handle his 2400 loads he loads BP in them as well tho.
I dont load my stuff as hot as keith but i have tryed his 2400 loads Reduced in a 45 schofield case in both SAA Colts 1875 remys and in DA 1878 Colts and they do well but crikey i would not want to shoot them loads all day and only in guns with newer cylinders would i even try that so i dont recomend that at all.
but no signs of excess presure in the cases or primers so he is right about the powder being simlar to BP in presure curve.
But he warns about over loads to, even has a chapter showing handguns blowin up and what caused this to happen so in general its good reading.
I agree with Jethunter to be safe to keep the loads down to them 12000 to 13000 Psi range tho.
Mike Venturino has also written some good articles on reloading & associated pressures. Some nice pics of destroyed S.A.A. as well. I would be pissed if I lost a Colt trying to gain a couple extra hundred feet per second...
Are there any good "PSI-to-CUP-to-BAR" calculators ?....
No, not for PSI to CUP. A calculation does exist but I would not bother with it. I used it once and got NEGATIVE pressure for a load, apparently my gun creates a giant vacuum when I fire it.
Are there any good "PSI-to-CUP-to-BAR" calculators ?....
Bar and psi are direct measurements of pressure. Converting PSI to BAR or vice versa is a simple conversion. 1 BAR is approximately 14.5### psi.
CUP measures how applied pressure affects the shape of copper cylinders. Basically CUP is an estimate based on an educated guess. It is the equivalent of trying to determine the weight of a car from looking at a tin can that was run over on the street.
BAR or PSI conversion to CUP is not a straight linear calculation because CUP is not terribly accurate to start with. The CUP measurement is theoretically the same unit as PSI, but it is so inaccurate that they have made it a separate unit.
You will still see CUP in some old loading manuals but it is dying, thankfully.
Here is a list of common cartridges with SAAMI and CIP (european equivalant of SAAMI) pressure standards. http://kwk.us/pressures.html
Hope some of that makes sense.
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Keith reviewed a lot of antique calibers and gave his experience or opinion on them in Sixguns.
Like when he wrote a 38-40 factory load splattered off an elks skull but didn't penetrate as it was charging him. Lots of great nuggets like that in there.
Like when he wrote a 38-40 factory load splattered off an elks skull but didn't penetrate as it was charging him. Lots of great nuggets like that in there.
