Disappointing Accubond performance?

Gatehouse said:
As I like to say "I've never seen a foot /pound kill anything, but I've seen large holes in vital organs kill pretty darn good! :)
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So why is it a deer shot in the vitals with a bow will typically run away and bleed out yet a deer struck well in teh vitals with a rifle will typicall go no more than a few yards?
 
Superbrad said:
So why is it a deer shot in the vitals with a bow will typically run away and bleed out yet a deer struck well in teh vitals with a rifle will typicall go no more than a few yards?
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Because the bullet blows the schit out of the lungs and heart and the arrow simply cuts it. Bullets smash bone. Hard to breathe when your lungs are mush.

Good example of this is 2 years ago, I shot a deer at an angle and only hit one lung. I was using a 300WSM with a 150gr TTSX bullet, so lots of "energy" there.

Deer ran quite a bit further than a double lunged deer, and it was dumping blood by the gallon it seems. Made a huge blood trail through the snow. When we finally caught up to it and cut it open we saw one intact lung and one that was mush. An arrow won't make lung mush,and a double arrowed deer probably has 50% lung capacity for some time, just like my running deer.
 
So why is it a deer shot in the vitals with a bow will typically run away and bleed out yet a deer struck well in teh vitals with a rifle will typicall go no more than a few yards?
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Try comparing the volume of the wound channel made with an arrow, to the volume of a wound channel made with a high velocity expanding bullet. Excepting impacts to the brain or nervous system,the larger the volume of the wound channel, the quicker the kill.
 
stubblejumper said:
Try comparing the volume of the wound channel made with an arrow, to the volume of a wound channel made with a high velocity expanding bullet. Excepting impacts to the brain or nervous system,the larger the volume of the wound channel, the quicker the kill.
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Agreed.... but to make that kind of channel you need ft pounds and force... that is why the wound channel is considerably larger than the width of an expanded bullet.....
 
Superbrad said:
Agreed.... but to make that kind of channel you need ft pounds and force... that is why the wound channel is considerably larger than the width of an expanded bullet.....
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You need energy to alow the bullet to its work...the energy itself does nothing. It takes considerable more energy to push a blunt/expanding mass through tissue than it does a razon sharp blade. The force of that blunt/expanding mass moving through tissue creates alot of trama to the surrounding tissue.
 
sheephunter said:
You need energy to alow the bullet to its work...the energy itself does nothing. It takes considerable more energy to push a blunt/expanding mass through tissue than it does a razon sharp blade. The force of that blunt/expanding mass moving through tissue creates alot of trama to the surrounding tissue.
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So... if a 30 cal bullet expands to say .50" then how come the exit wound can be over 2 inches wide if energy does nothing?

You said it yourself... the force creates trauma... force = energy

The quicker the velocity the quicker the expansion takes place and the more energy is created...

SO yes, the velocity in and of itself does nothing... but the energy it in turn creates open up that wound channel....
 
Superbrad said:
So... if a 30 cal bullet expands to say .50" then how come the exit wound can be over 2 inches wide if energy does nothing?

You said it yourself... the force creates trauma... force = energy

The quicker the velocity the quicker the expansion takes place and the more energy is created...

SO yes, the velocity in and of itself does nothing... but the energy it in turn creates open up that wound channel....
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Energy is definitely not created in a moving mass. Physics tells us that. The only thing that energy is capable of transfering into is heat...again, simple physics. That heat is created by friction, the second the bullet leaves the case it starts losing energy due to friction.

Skin is elastic and stretches before rupturing....the bullet pushes it outward until it can expand no longer and it ruptures, resulting in the larger ragged hole. That rupture is created by the moving mass not energy. There's some pretty cool on-line video that really demonstrates this well.
 
sheephunter said:
Energy is definitely not created in a moving mass. Physics tells us that. The only thing that energy is capable of transfering into is heat...again, simple physics. That heat is created by friction, the second the bullet leaves the case it starts losing energy due to friction.

Skin is elastic and stretches before rupturing....the bullet pushes it outward until it can expand no longer and it ruptures, resulting in the larger ragged hole. That rupture is created by the moving mass not energy. There's some pretty cool on-line video that really demonstrates this well.
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Actually... physics tells us the opposite....

For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.... yes, tissue is elastic but only until it ruptures... as you said...

How is the mass moving without energy? it isn't.... the energy created by the explosion of powder in the cartridge pushes the bullet down the barrel towards the target.... the bullet is storing energy as it moves towards teh target (losing some of this energy to wind resistance).... when the bullet strikes the target the resistance causes it to begin expansion.... ]

An FMJ round will go right through most animals unless it strikes bone because it does not spend it's energy expanding.....

Other rounds, however, expand and as they do so they transfer energy outwards.... this causes the tissue to react and "move away" from the expanding bullet at an equal rate causing the tissue to rupture....... as the tissue is not elastic enough to go back into shape after such rapid expansion it creates a wound channel larger than the round itself....
 
Superbrad said:
Actually... physics tells us the opposite....

For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.... yes, tissue is elastic but only until it ruptures... as you said... It can only lose energy once it's fired. Every moving mass by definition has energy but they can't create more than they started with. If that was the case they would accelerate at some point. They don't.

How is the mass moving without energy? it isn't.... ....
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Of course physics tells us that....you said the bullet created energy...physics doesn't tell us that. A bullet begins losing energy to friction the second it leaves the case.

An FMJ round will go right through most animals unless it strikes bone because it does not spend it's energy expanding.....
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Exactly. Less frontal area and non expansion equals less friction. Less friction equals a less rapid rate of deceleration. Not as much energy is trasfered into heat because of less friction.

Other rounds, however, expand and as they do so they transfer energy outwards.... this causes the tissue to react and "move away" from the expanding bullet at an equal rate causing the tissue to rupture....... as the tissue is not elastic enough to go back into shape after such rapid expansion it creates a wound channel larger than the round itself....
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They tranfer energy into heat due to the friction...yup. You are on pretty well the right track for the wound channel although a lot of the bruising you see is called a temporary wound channel. Yes the tissue expands but it also contracts. The expansion can cause some bruising though. Another cause of a larger actual wound channel is becase the tissue is actually torn as the blunt mass moves through it where a broadhead actually cuts. You are correst that the tissue is not as elastic as the hide and why the wound channel is often smaller than the exit hole. The greater the expasion at rupture, the greater the size of the tearing.
 
sheephunter said:
Of course physics tells us that....you said the bullet created energy...physics doesn't tell us that. A bullet begins losing energy to friction the second it leaves the case.



Exactly. Less frontal area and non expansion equals less friction. Less friction equals a less rapid rate of deceleration. Not as much energy is trasfered into heat because of less friction.



They tranfer energy into heat due to the friction...yup. You are on pretty well theb right track for the would channel although a lot of the bruising you see is called a temporary wound channel. Yes the tissue expands but it also contracts. The expansion can cause some bruising though. Another cause of a larger actual wound channel is becase the tissue is actually torn as the blunt mass moves through it where a broadhead actually cuts. You are correst that the tissue is not as elastic as the hide and why the wound channel is often smaller than the exit hole. The greater the expasion at rupture, the greater the size of the tearing.
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Hehehe... I don't recall saying the bullet created energy....

As far as the wound channel is concerned you bring up a pretty solid argument there... and I am a physics major....LMAO.... you learn something every day.... ;)
 
Superbrad said:
No... not the way I intended to write it...

The quicker the velocity the quicker the expansion and the more energy is TRANSFERED in the direction of expansion.... :)... my bad...
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Okay, I think I can live with that...lol As long as that transfer is to heat because I'm sure as physics major you know that's all energy can transfer to ;) The moving mass sure can cause some tissue expansion though. Energy allows the mass to do that, while transfering energy to heat because of the work the mass is doing. :)
 
Huntin' Gun said:
So then, did the discussion between Superbrad and Sheephunter result in the conclusion that Accubonds are good, or bad?
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Accurate bullets are good but different elements of physics better explain that ;)

It's good to understand how bullets work and kill. Most of their "failings" are a result of operator error, shot angle, velocity, etc...not bad construction. Pretty hard to find a "bad" premium bullet....if it shoots well from your rifle that is.
 
Sheephunter, I basically agree with your idea of how wounding ballistics works, except in the case of one detail. You've repeatedly said that energy can ONLY be transferred into heat, and that's not true. Energy can be transferred into all sorts of other forms of energy, heat being only one of them. The energy can also be transferred into, for example, mechanical energy, or sound.

If energy could ONLY be transferred into heat, then the potential energy that is released by burning the gasoline in your truck would just heat the truck up until it's red hot, but it could never drive anywhere. In reality, some of the energy becomes heat, some becomes noise, some becomes mechanical energy that is harnessed so that you can drive, etc.

Similarly, when you fire a bullet in the chamber, the bullet heats up (heat) both from the heat of the chemical reaction and the friction of the barrel. But it is also accelerated (mechanical).

When the bullet strikes the target, it doesn't kill the animal by turning its energy into heat, although this would happen to a small degree as a byproduct, just as it did in the last two examples. I think that once again it is the mechanical energy transfer that does the killing, because the bullet tears, crushes, and displaces tissue, thereby destroying said vital organ tissue. The tissue is accelerated from being stationary, and moved by the bullets passage, exhibiting energy transfer just as one pool que ball imparts energy into another, moving it by striking it. It's not a question of friction, but of one mass physically displacing or impacting, or otherwise destroying another. If I rub my foot against the floor, it causes friction and generates some heat, but leaves the floor basically unaffected. If I were to smash an object through the floor, that's another matter entirely!

I don't know if that made sense, but I hope so :S

I'm off to bed so I won't be able to respond today at least.

Cheers!
Red
 
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