AR Forgrips and kneeling positon question - options and opinions

recce said:
Lots of documented pics of kabooms that affected the mag and magwell. However most seem to occur with questionable surplus or improperly loaded hand rolled ammo.

I agree with WP that the bigger issue is control of the gun. It's too bad that many mfr's are now making "grip points" on the front of the mag well now-a-days. Leads to bad habits.

The thumb over grip was taught years ago when firing the C1 smg, and I imagine that came from the STEN. It helped control the climb and at night we were taught to point our index finger along the barrel jacket as your finger naturally goes where your eyes are looking.

Whats new is most often old..
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X2, going back full circle almost. People think that thumb over hold is some Magpul invention when it actually isnt and can be traced pretty far back.
 
I've almost always had something on my guns, and recently just took off a KAC hand stop, but only to put on an M900v.

Whether its a hand stop, stubby or regular vert grip, or the 900v now, it's used more as an index point and something to pull the gun into the shoulder.
 
misanthropist said:
Well, I guess we know different professionals.

I can definitely say that not one of the professionals I know uses an SKS or an Enfield.

I have noticed ARs seem to be in relatively common professional use, though.
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None of the working professionals I know use either of those, but they do use AK pattern frequently, which would amount to the same if you wrap your thumb over the top. No sites.

I was referring to the idiots that make the "I was a Navy seal for ten years" TV shows or videos. Doesn't seem to matter which type of firearm they are "handling" they use that same stupid grip.
 
Petrock said:
People who carry and use firearms in nasty places to deal with nasty people.
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Regardless of skill level? Cause there are a lot of people doing what you describe that can by no means be called professional.

Just trying to figure out what your 'yardstick' is.
 
If I don't have a foregrip/stub/AVG to look cool, will my #### fall off ? :eek:

I just installed one for next summer's CQB season! :nest: And the colour matches my M15 Armalite furniture! :evil:

:cheers:

Barney
 
wicked_police said:
Regardless of skill level? Cause there are a lot of people doing what you describe that can by no means be called professional.

Just trying to figure out what your 'yardstick' is.
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No you're just being arguementative.

Look man, I really don't give half a crap of what you think of me, because your views are different from mine.

I work, play and party with some of the best this country has to offer. Not one of those people, who shoot for a living, use that garbage.

It's a gymic to sell DVDs to people who run around on ranges in black pants, telling each other how Tacticool they are.
 
Not being argumentative at all. I know a lot of those 'range' guys that are a hell of a lot more professional that some that get issued a government gun and get a government check.

Didn't you say you work with a lot of police agencies in your current duties as a bomb tech in another thread?

And I know some guys, ex and current, from some hill near ottawa that use that technique, or variations of it.

There's a lot of other bull#### in dvd's that are used to sell the product and make people feel better about themselves, but a good technique that works isn't one of them.
 
wicked_police said:
Not being argumentative at all. I know a lot of those 'range' guys that are a hell of a lot more professional that some that get issued a government gun and get a government check.

Didn't you say you work with a lot of police agencies in your current duties as a bomb tech in another thread?

And I know some guys, ex and current, from some hill near ottawa that use that technique, or variations of it.

There's a lot of other bulls**t in dvd's that are used to sell the product and make people feel better about themselves, but a good technique that works isn't one of them.
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IIRC he's a weapons tech with a negative bias towards police officers.
 
I had a KABOOM in an AR in the late 80's at the Firing Line.

The magazine completely blew open and the 20 plus rounds that were in it went all over the floor.

No damage to the rifle. The magazine was a write off.
 
First of all, people do that becasue C7 handguard is not free floating. If you have FF handguard, by all means hold on to the handguard.

Guys jump off airplanes and helicopters in the army - a kaboom with the rifle on your kneel is the less risk one can take.

Also, when things kaboom, most of the pictures i have seen showed the magazines itself got blown away. The lower receiver opens downwards and directs the blast down. The magwell itself does not get torn away like the upper.

Bolivar said:
Hey

A friend pointed out that one of the failure points of an AR is the magwell. That is if a bolt fails or a round discharges out of battery or (insert bad sh*t here) the mag well can fail and "burst"

I currently grip the mag well on my 14.5 inch rifle (as shown on my profile pic) but I am thinking I should change this to avoid damage to my digits in the event of a catastrophic failure (stuff happens)

My thought is to either go with a vertical fore grip mounted near the rear of the hand guard (mimicking the magwell grip) or maybe go with an AFV.

Anybody with experience as to what to buy or more importantly what to avoid buying?

Another thought is for the kneeling position where you rest the front rifle on the trigger guard and have the mag outside of your front knee or leg. Is this kinda unsafe from a failure point of view? I am thinking that if vented gasses want to blow the mag out of the gun, having it against my knee is a bad thing.

Am I concerned about nothing or are there other options for stable kneeling position that keeps the magwell away from the body a bit?

I would really appreciate input from those shooters who shoot service conditions (involving kneeling and prone). That is my plan for next year
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mmmm well I will go with wicked on this....I know a "few" pro's running the thumb over the top/pointed forward and yes it works very well
 
Jamie said:
mmmm well I will go with wicked on this....I know a "few" pro's running the thumb over the top/pointed forward and yes it works very well
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Like I said before, the reason, and the only reason, people hold on to the magwell is that regular C7/M16 barrel is not free floated. The POI can change up to 6-8MOA if you force it with aggressive hold like what you said. That's why in an all military shoot like the CFSAC, everyone holds on the the magwell - and that practice has its root in the military where plain jane non-free floated C7/M16s had been used for aeons.

Know your weapon construction, figure out what you need to achieve, and pick the appropriate technique.
 
greentips said:
Also, when things kaboom, most of the pictures i have seen showed the magazines itself got blown away. The lower receiver opens downwards and directs the blast down. The magwell itself does not get torn away like the upper.
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I have heard of the magwell bursting, but I suppose it is possible that in was actually while resting the mag on the ground which will alter the "mag-out-the-bottom" vent point. The over knee support would still allow the mag to pop and unless shooting in shorts it should not cause much harm to the shooter. Ummm, I think anyway.

I have seen a Kaboom recently and there was definite damage to the upper below the ejection port and the mag follower was screwed. I don't recall if there was damage to the lower or if the mag popped out. Maybe somebody else that was there can chime in?
 
Bolivar said:
I have heard of the magwell bursting, but I suppose it is possible that in was actually while resting the mag on the ground which will alter the "mag-out-the-bottom" vent point. The over knee support would still allow the mag to pop and unless shooting in shorts it should not cause much harm to the shooter. Ummm, I think anyway.

I have seen a Kaboom recently and there was definite damage to the upper below the ejection port and the mag follower was screwed. I don't recall if there was damage to the lower or if the mag popped out. Maybe somebody else that was there can chime in?
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I can't add anything in regards to what happened to the rifle in the incident you mentioned, but I will add that after the clean up, I noticed some of the primers were flattened and cratered. These were signs that someones handloads were a little too hot, and I suspect that this was the cause of the failure, although I don't know if the brass I observed came from the shooter who had their rifle fail. I'll try to find some of the brass and post pics of them later.
 
For CQB distances, and even up to 50m or so, the grip being talked about here will not change the POI to a significant degree.

And at the further distances (like CFSAC) where it would affect POI, you will not need the speed and aggression when moving from target to target. Going from one target to another at 100m and beyond requires less movement and more finesse and precision.
 
greentips said:
Like I said before, the reason, and the only reason, people hold on to the magwell is that regular C7/M16 barrel is not free floated. The POI can change up to 6-8MOA if you force it with aggressive hold like what you said. That's why in an all military shoot like the CFSAC, everyone holds on the the magwell - and that practice has its root in the military where plain jane non-free floated C7/M16s had been used for aeons.

Know your weapon construction, figure out what you need to achieve, and pick the appropriate technique.
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I have already purchased a FF rail for that very reason (thank you EE). I don't want to introduce a flex in the barrel if/when I alter my hold.

Back to WP point on muzzle control, that makes sense and is another reason I am considering changing my grip position. The magwell grip is a non issue on my 20 inch rifle as I find it muzzle heavy enough that I naturally want to grip the FF handguard when shooting off hand. For kneeling and prone though I would think that my hand will naturally go for the vertical magwell hold.

If I change things for my carbine I will also likely revise my rifle hold for these positions so that I am doing things the same between the two. Or not. I don't know. Gotta get some trigger time in to see what works. Gives me something to do during commercial breaks on Sunday football afternoons.
 
This is the third thread in as many days that has covered this topic. I think it's great that people on this forum are finally discussing these issues. I also believe that is why we need a "Training" forum on this board, to discuss these issues in the proper venue. I've asked a mod and he said he'll discuss with GT.

FWIW, I think the magwell hold is outdated and conventional trainers have pretty much stopped teaching it's use. Will it work? Yes. Is it the best method? No.

Improper magwell hold can also cause stoppages. So consider it's use carefully, especially if you are competing.
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