seriously... why is black badge training so expensive?
- Thread starter easysauce
- Start date
Anyone who thinks a Black Badge course is the same as a holster course if full of ####. The how to draw from a holster occupies maybe an hour of the Black Badge course. of course during that time i am also working on the persons grip and stance. In fact i would say that 40 to 50% of my time the first day is working on grip. why do i spend that amount of time well people seem to have more fun when they are hitting the target consistently. i am also doing this out to 15 yards. i am also going to on day one teach them how to do a reload safely, shot strong hand, weak hand and do a strong to weak hand transfer. and guess what with a normal class that is going to take me the better part of 8 hours! now come day two when i am going to start teaching them how to move with a fire arm safely. this will include moving forward, backwards, turning, shooting around barricades, shooting on your knees and belly and of course an ElPresidenta which is always good for three or four runs it seems. Then we are going to put it all together with a mini match so that the student is prepared to go to a match and not feel lost.
Now for all of this i charge $250. with that you get your first year IPSC Alberta Membership fee, your first match is free, your books are free and i include lunch. And if anyone thinks that for 16 hours that is pretty good they don't know the hours that go into preparing for the course, i normally figure i have a minimum of 40 hours into a course before the first shot it fired. Teach if for free? why? my time is valuable. if i can't make $300 a day i am not interested in taking on any work except a BB course (i wished i made $600 for an IPSC BB course.) If the IDPA guys want to do it for free all the more power to them but the old adage you get what you pay for comes to mind.
As for a season competitor from another discipline wanting to shot IPSC! write the exam and come shot my mini-match and show me you have the skills to shot IPSC. seems strange but so far anyone i have offered that to never seems to make it out. i wonder why.
AS for IDPA being cheaper then IPSC about the only thing cheaper is the ammo. A normal IPSC match having 8 stages and adhering to the 3/2/1 rule will probably have between 150 and a 165 rounds. If i remember correctly for an IDPA course the maximum number of rounds is 18. so for a 8 course IDPA match the number of rounds would be 144. so a shooter might save a whole 21 rounds of ammo. as for gear being cheaper i have seen what some of the US boys are running and i can tell you it is no cheaper then what is run in IPSC Standard or production division. Can you go cheaper, of course you can. i know lots of people in IPSC who use their pants belts, cheap mag holders and a holster their dad bought of of JB! and you know what, they have a blast. however the guys that winning matches are using the best gear out there as tenths of a second make a difference. In limited 10 at the USPA nationals this year the difference between first and second was about 0.3 points if i remember correctly.
as for which is easier to shot i think IDPA is since i am told i will shot these targets from here, these from here and these from here. i will shot these from behind this barricade and these ones on the move and i will shot the targets in this order. on a good IPSC stage i am told there are x number of targets out there shot them as you see them. just a tad bit more thinking.
anyways back to the OPs originally question why is a BB course more money then a holster course it is because i can teach you how to draw safely from a holster in an hour if i drag it out. a BB course takes me two full days to teach you the skills to shot safely in an IPSC match.
Now for all of this i charge $250. with that you get your first year IPSC Alberta Membership fee, your first match is free, your books are free and i include lunch. And if anyone thinks that for 16 hours that is pretty good they don't know the hours that go into preparing for the course, i normally figure i have a minimum of 40 hours into a course before the first shot it fired. Teach if for free? why? my time is valuable. if i can't make $300 a day i am not interested in taking on any work except a BB course (i wished i made $600 for an IPSC BB course.) If the IDPA guys want to do it for free all the more power to them but the old adage you get what you pay for comes to mind.
As for a season competitor from another discipline wanting to shot IPSC! write the exam and come shot my mini-match and show me you have the skills to shot IPSC. seems strange but so far anyone i have offered that to never seems to make it out. i wonder why.
AS for IDPA being cheaper then IPSC about the only thing cheaper is the ammo. A normal IPSC match having 8 stages and adhering to the 3/2/1 rule will probably have between 150 and a 165 rounds. If i remember correctly for an IDPA course the maximum number of rounds is 18. so for a 8 course IDPA match the number of rounds would be 144. so a shooter might save a whole 21 rounds of ammo. as for gear being cheaper i have seen what some of the US boys are running and i can tell you it is no cheaper then what is run in IPSC Standard or production division. Can you go cheaper, of course you can. i know lots of people in IPSC who use their pants belts, cheap mag holders and a holster their dad bought of of JB! and you know what, they have a blast. however the guys that winning matches are using the best gear out there as tenths of a second make a difference. In limited 10 at the USPA nationals this year the difference between first and second was about 0.3 points if i remember correctly.
as for which is easier to shot i think IDPA is since i am told i will shot these targets from here, these from here and these from here. i will shot these from behind this barricade and these ones on the move and i will shot the targets in this order. on a good IPSC stage i am told there are x number of targets out there shot them as you see them. just a tad bit more thinking.
anyways back to the OPs originally question why is a BB course more money then a holster course it is because i can teach you how to draw safely from a holster in an hour if i drag it out. a BB course takes me two full days to teach you the skills to shot safely in an IPSC match.
Thanks Walther for explaining it in simple terms....
Do you buy props and steel...or use the ones provided by the club?
yeah thanks for the detailed explanation there with round counts. So
I never have to repay the BB fee though do I? cause like I said, this is something for me to do in the 3 gun off season, I may only hit one or two matches a year, maybe miss a year if Im off doing other stuff in winter. but I will hit all the monthly 3guns and Im just trying to budget between a trigger job for my heavy as hell M&P trigger that Ill use all the time and something to do when im bored in the off season. I have all the gear, is any holster brand ok as long as its not drop leg? so 250ish for the course, not including 20 match fees, but first match is free. I would love to come down and do the course when $ permits, as someone who has done three gun (ie done course of fire with pistol/shotty/rifle, prone, urbanprone, movement, el presidente, swingers, clays, steel, all that good stuff), what kind of advanced stuff will I be exposed to? is that stuff even in IPSC or is it all inside range type stuff? got a schedule of courses?
AS has been stated, 75$ covers your first years IPSC membership. lets say 25$ for range fees, that leaves us with ~100$ leftover. My BB course had about 10 shooters and ran 3 or 4 4 hour sessions. now thats about 15 hours of instruction to a small group. i got a lot out of my course and i think you would as well. it is mostly a safe gun hangling course. but safe gun handling when there are 50+ people with guns and ammo on their belts in the same area can be a bit more complicated than it may seem at first.
Most importantly, once you have completed the BB course, as long are you shoot in 1 IPSC match per year, it will be valid for life.
For me, it was well worth it and it is probably the most fun i am legally allowed to have.
As far as equiptment, a good belt $50, a plastic gun 600$, holster 25$, 3 mags 80$ (2 come with plastic gun so that will give you 5) 2 double mag pouches 50$ so at just over 800$ it wont be the cheapest sport you have ever tried, but if you like shooting handguns, you will love it.
Most importantly, once you have completed the BB course, as long are you shoot in 1 IPSC match per year, it will be valid for life.
For me, it was well worth it and it is probably the most fun i am legally allowed to have.
As far as equiptment, a good belt $50, a plastic gun 600$, holster 25$, 3 mags 80$ (2 come with plastic gun so that will give you 5) 2 double mag pouches 50$ so at just over 800$ it wont be the cheapest sport you have ever tried, but if you like shooting handguns, you will love it.
stormbringer
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- S.W. Ontario
What are you smoking?
most people start with a 9mm handgun (same as IDPA) 4 mags (same as IDPA) and a few hundred rounds (same as IDPA)
No worries however..........I will take you off the list of people who wanted a black badge.......we would not want to stress your brain too much . You have to think in BOTH games. In IPSC you just have to shoot FASTER and think FASTER to win. If you just want to shoot and have fun at your own pace you can have fun in both.
LMAO.... and the usual IPSC hero you are i see. For the sake of argument you are right.. no one who shoots IPSC has back up mags... all those guys u see with 8 plus mags on hand must not be real. Or the cost of holsters, mag holders, fancy belts... don't forget the jersey... basically are free... oh and BTW ...how many stages do you shoot in a match? Ya thats what i thought... please keep talking... you clearly know....
IPSC- run and shoot as you want....IDPA following a set of rules and orders...ya IPDA sounds much easier!
I think anyone who knows anything and "does both" wouldn't even pretend IPSC doesn't cost more... and clearly i wasn't talking about then MIN cost, i was talking about being competitive....
Now not bashing IPSC... great game as well...and blackbadge if u can afford it is a great course....IPSC is just different and MUCH more expensive than IDPA... so just giving the OP an option seeing as how cash might have been an issue.
I knew i saw you at the club.. you're the guy wearing head to toe STI and Tanfoglio attire to prove how good you are right?
Dude............you apparantly do not know s**t about either game.
sad really.
That is an urban myth.......
The suggestion is that you actually know how to shoot a gun and somewhat accurately.
Some people take a year for that..........
Some have been that good in two weeks.
I know one young lady that had 200 rounds through her gun when she took the BB course. that is 200 rounds through ANY handgun in her life! She was competent from the start.
Vest??? Vest??? STFU Newbie............real men wear Hawaiian Shirts!!
Last edited:
- Location
- Halifax - NS
Wow, did this thread ever go off the rails...
OP answers -
In 20 years of administering, observing and assisting in black badge courses I have yet to see someone come out of it say they didn't take something good from it.
OP answers -
If that's your main concern, the BB might not be for you. The instructors are putting it on in order to get more people who can come to IPSC competitions. If you're looking for shooting training, you'll get better value for your money somewhere else as you won't be spending the time being focused on the sport.
Correct. You only pay for the BB once, provided you maintain your certifiation by shooting IPSC each year - drop out for a a considerable time, and you'll have to re-certify.
Yes, provided it covers your trigger when the gun is in it (I don't know of any that don't anymore..)
Shooting from Multiple positions, movement, reloads, etc. - done safely.
I think, through all this mess of a thread, I saw that you were in Alberta; if so - drop IPSC Alberta a line http://www.ipscalberta.com/ and they will hook you up. Otherwise, go to http://www.ipsc-canada.org and click on the province you live in.
In 20 years of administering, observing and assisting in black badge courses I have yet to see someone come out of it say they didn't take something good from it.
- Location
- SW Ontario
stormbringer
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- S.W. Ontario
At EESA the IDPA crew use the props, backstops, poppers, target holders etc that have been built up by the IPSC section over the past 12 years of hosting matches. It was not purchased but was built by the IPSC crew members.
The IPSC crew has and had no problem with this idea. As was posted above many IPSC shooters at EESA also shoot IDPA. After all any shooting is good shooting! At some point I would think that the pure "IDPA" types (like aeroplane) will step up and build some props to add to the mix and am certain that will happen.
Heck I even have some full size pepper popper targets that I did not "behead" so that IDPA could have them........Hmmmm been over a year now with no progress, if there really is an IPSC/IDPA rift at EESA perhaps I should rectifiy that and start hacking! But of course I know that is not the general case. The IDPAers at EESA are for the most part great members...........just trying to get their section off the ground.
If there is a rift between IDPA and ipsc at our club I am unaware of it....in general we all support all types of shooting, especially action shooting. 
Having said that, very rarely does everyone agree on everything, and certainly we all have our opinions...although ipsc vs IDPA threads tend to break down on CGN, most of us do everything we can to support the other.
Hell...I joined ipsc because of east elgin and I've had a great time at our matches.
Having said that, very rarely does everyone agree on everything, and certainly we all have our opinions...although ipsc vs IDPA threads tend to break down on CGN, most of us do everything we can to support the other.
Hell...I joined ipsc because of east elgin and I've had a great time at our matches.
Fair enough...but your statement that you can put on a $20 match and make money would probably not be the case if you had to accumulate and pay for IDPA specific props / steel etc.
You can charge $20 because those props have been paid for already (by the $30 match fees you poked at earlier)
You can charge $20 because those props have been paid for already (by the $30 match fees you poked at earlier)
If there is a rift between IDPA and ipsc at our club I am unaware of it....in general we all support all types of shooting, especially action shooting.
Having said that, very rarely does everyone agree on everything, and certainly we all have our opinions...although ipsc vs IDPA threads tend to break down on CGN, most of us do everything we can to support the other.
Hell...I joined ipsc because of east elgin and I've had a great time at our matches.
If you really want to be "certain" (more so than the guess you just made) let me know...
It wouldn't take long to create a Financial Model that can be used on a match by match basis to capture all revenue and costs (including what your break even point is)
My guess is you would be urprised at the results...
It wouldn't take long to create a Financial Model that can be used on a match by match basis to capture all revenue and costs (including what your break even point is)
My guess is you would be urprised at the results...
stormbringer
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- S.W. Ontario
Hey I thought Colt45gunner had a whole program figured out for that already!!
