Accuracy questions!

JesseB123

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HEY! So, been to the range a couple times lately and I've noticed accuracy discrepancies throughout my sessions. I found an ammo that my gun likes and have stuck to that for awhile now, and I have also adopted new cleaning regimens which were taken through suggestions made in another post I asked in last week. These regimens include; no more bore snake, leaving the barrel alone unless required (it was clean before today's shooting, and only passed 200 rounds through it total today), and only cleaning & oiling the bolt/action.

Now, I'm using a pretty new Savage MkII synthetic stock with a Bushnell 3-9x Rimfire scope and standard barrel from benchrest. The ammo that works best is CCI's Blazer .22lr, which is great because it's consistent and cost-effective (I tried about ten different types of ammunition before I decided this works best).

A few weeks ago, with this same ammo, I ended up with a group like this at 50yds from benchrest, and this was after about 50 rounds at 25yds, so it was warm for sure. That's 10 rounds through a ragged 1/2" hole (I had taken the scope off to try the iron sights, and reattached it and was zeroing it back in, hence the high group)

IMAG0345-1.jpg


Now this is from today, after the same - about 50 rounds at 25yds, I moved the target to 50yds and ended up with frustrating groups, like this one, and worst of all, this group was the best of 4 different groups. This is 14 shots, about a magazine and a half. The first magazine I aimed dead center, the last four shots I tried to aim high but it obviously did nothing helpful. The scope is zeroed in at 25yds.

IMAG0491.jpg


What kind of things can I try to eliminate error like this, and what could be going wrong to create such an obtuse group?

A couple noteworthy things are, and I'm wondering if they are contributing to loss of accuracy, that I took the stock off and put it back on just 'cause that's what kind of guy I am. I like to take things apart and see how they work (this is my first rifle). Is there a science to reattaching the stock? And I'm wondering if the barrel, hot or warm as it was, could be spitting rounds everywhere just because of the temperature? I don't know how much this affects a firearm, but maybe someone could put that into perspective for me.

Thanks!
 
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make sure everything is torqued down properly and make sure your scope rings are tight, a slightly loose scope would cause groups to open up

I guess I could find torque specs online somewhere, or is there a standard for bolt action rimfires? As for the scope, it was attached professionally so I'd hope it would be proper (it is).
 
If you mean it was installed by some guy at a gun shop, that doesn't mean it was installed right. Your best to go over everything, and if your groups don't improve, change out the scope.

You're right, I assumed it was done right (and it is all tight), and when you assume, you make an ASS out of U and ME :)

Reading up on torque specifications here and that could definitely be it, I had no idea, but this is all a learning process for me. Glad to have something to go after and try to fix now. I might just go back to the range while it's still light out...
 
As for the scope, it was attached professionally so I'd hope it would be proper (it is).

After you removed it?

I had taken the scope off to try the iron sights, and reattached it and was zeroing it back in, hence the high group

If you removed and reinstalled the scope yourself, it isn't professionally installed any more.
 
After you removed it? If you removed and reinstalled the scope yourself, it isn't professionally installed any more.

THAT is technical. I undid the thumbscrews at the bottom of the rings and slid them off the weaver bases, and reattached them accordingly when I was done. I wouldn't think a professional would be required to re-install this simple part. The parts I would prefer a professional, or at least someone with experience and not to do myself are the 'locktited' bases and the rings themselves as I would no doubt end up with a cant in the crosshairs that would drive me insane.

BUT, if you think there was room for error in my simple on/off then I will pursue that seeing as I'm looking for help and I'm hoping you guys with experience are there to do just that.
 
I'm inclined to believe your scope failed. Certainly double check your rings and bases. Clean that bore and take care around the crown on the muzzle. But for such a noticable change, unless you were having a really bad day I've seen scopes go bad do that. I have one in my safe right now, just waiting to go back for warranty.
 
Was wind any influence? Different type of resting or position used?

No wind, beautiful clear day today, 3-5 degrees C, all consistent position and 95% shots called 'good'.

I'm inclined to believe your scope failed. Certainly double check your rings and bases. Clean that bore and take care around the crown on the muzzle. But for such a noticable change, unless you were having a really bad day I've seen scopes go bad do that. I have one in my safe right now, just waiting to go back for warranty.

That is really interesting, what could cause a scope to fail so suddenly over such a short time? Besides the rings & bases of course. It hasn't sustained any trauma and I know for a fact because it is always in or extremely near my control and the gun is babied. Faulty craftsmanship?
 
Craftsmanship and Bushnell don't usually go together. (I'm allowed to say that, I own a few of them. :p)

It could be just faulty from the factory and any little bump could have knocked the guts out. My example is a 6-18 Banner, you can hold it, give it a shake and it sounds like a baby rattle. I had it on a .22, threw it on a .223 for a few weeks and next thing I knew I was shooting a shotgun pattern. The massive recoil from those .223's ate the scope...

:rolleyes:

I've had these scopes before and they've always held up well, so I know it was just a bad unit. It happens, check everything first just keep that in mind before you go crazy.

Where do you live? If your close to Lethbridge you can borrow one of my scopes just to check it out.
 
Craftsmanship and Bushnell don't usually go together. (I'm allowed to say that, I own a few of them. :p)

It could be just faulty from the factory and any little bump could have knocked the guts out. My example is a 6-18 Banner, you can hold it, give it a shake and it sounds like a baby rattle. I had it on a .22, threw it on a .223 for a few weeks and next thing I knew I was shooting a shotgun pattern. The massive recoil from those .223's ate the scope...

:rolleyes:

I've had these scopes before and they've always held up well, so I know it was just a bad unit. It happens, check everything first just keep that in mind before you go crazy.

Where do you live? If your close to Lethbridge you can borrow one of my scopes just to check it out.

I'm about 1300k away in Nanaimo unfortunately, but thanks a lot for the offer! :p Glad there's a great community full of support around this hobby. I'll just take as many variables out of the equation as possible one by one and see what happens. I guess I'll post some results seeing as some people seem to be interested :) I know I like and appreciate reading peoples posts and photos of experiences, trials and experiments. I've got a couple months off due to some recent surgery so I'll be at the range a good portion of the time, much to my doc's chagrin >:)
 
I will suggest you look at the stock and how it fits the rifle. It could be a bedding issue, I suspect it is as you have recently removed the stock.

You do not want the stock touching the barrel anywhere, but especially in an asymmetrical fashion. Take a $20 bill (or whatever) and wrap it around the barrel in an upright "U" then slide it towards the action. It should slide freely until you find a recoil lug, the take down screw or the action itself.

The Savage synthetic stocks are notoriously flimsy and susceptible to heat warping.

The torque on the takedown screw(s) is very important also. There may be a spec, or you may have to do some experimenting.

The scope could also be giving you grief, check all fasteners. Beyond that, you will have to change it to verify the scope itself isn't faulty.

How is the barrel crown? Perhaps the crown got damaged.

High volume shooting shouldn't affect accuracy to this degree, unless the barrel is hot to the touch.

Bare in mind that different lots of ammo can have different results. Lot numbers are printed on, or inside the box somewhere. Extremely unlikely that you are having such a massive variance with your choice ammo.
 
I will suggest you look at the stock and how it fits the rifle. It could be a bedding issue, I suspect it is as you have recently removed the stock.

You do not want the stock touching the barrel anywhere, but especially in an asymmetrical fashion. Take a $20 bill (or whatever) and wrap it around the barrel in an upright "U" then slide it towards the action. It should slide freely until you find a recoil lug, the take down screw or the action itself.

The Savage synthetic stocks are notoriously flimsy and susceptible to heat warping.

The torque on the takedown screw(s) is very important also. There may be a spec, or you may have to do some experimenting.

The scope could also be giving you grief, check all fasteners. Beyond that, you will have to change it to verify the scope itself isn't faulty.

How is the barrel crown? Perhaps the crown got damaged.

High volume shooting shouldn't affect accuracy to this degree, unless the barrel is hot to the touch.

Bare in mind that different lots of ammo can have different results. Lot numbers are printed on, or inside the box somewhere. Extremely unlikely that you are having such a massive variance with your choice ammo.


Alriht, the barrel isn't touching the stock anywhere, but it only takes a very small amount of pressure gripping the barrel and stock to bring them together, but this isn't an issue during shooting from the benchrest or offhand since no grip applies such pressure. LOL as if there's a $20 kicking around, I found a $5 and used that to make sure, slid it all the way up.

IMAG0492.jpg


As for the crown, under close scrutiny (if the neighbors peeked through the blinds while I was checking, they would have feared the worst...) there seems to be no deformities or chips, only small amounts of carbon build up. Zoom in all you like, I did and couldn't find any still.

DSCN8034.jpg


It wouldn't be the lot, I feel confident about that for some reason.

I guess I'll go mess around with the bedding & torque until it hopefully looks better, then I can mess with zero again and check scope tightess and everything else that has been suggested.

Looks like I'm headed to the range with a few extra tools and a large checklist next time.
 
That carbon build up isn't even around the circumfrence if the crown, weird. Clean it all off, you'd be surprised how much bullet flights are affected by little things like that. Hoppes #9 and a cleaning brush should clean it off nicely.
 
I have a newer savage as well. The bases are held by two little screws each. They get loose easy so I ended up using lock-tight on them. That might very well be the problem. One issue I had this week, related to the cold, was that at minus 11c, my CCI standard velocity were hitting 3 inches lower than usual. I guess this is why they sell special amo for biathlons.
Denis
 
Back from the range, 4 hours & 300+ rounds later I'm still frustrated and inconsistent. I had a good time I guess, saw couple people there I haven't for awhile.

Anyways, here's the first 5 groups, CCI Blazer at 40 meters (I set up next to the silhouette berms) and each target is numbered in the sequence that I took the groups. I started with the action screws thumb tight and in between each group I tightened them both equally 1/8th of a turn until too tight to go further. With these adjustments I didn't notice any difference whatsoever.

I started with 5 shot groups, but ended up shooting 10 shot groups after the first 3 I think.

IMAG0514.jpg


After my 1/8th's turn experiment, I loosened it again - shot a group then tightened them all the way and shot a group. Again, no difference was seen. So I ended up settling with a thumb tight then 1/4 turn on the action screws to bed the rifle to my satisfaction I guess.

Here's the second page of groups. I adjusted the scope after this lot seeing as everything was ending up low.

IMAG0515.jpg


After the first 100 rounds, I started getting marginally better groupings, and didn't change anything to achieve this. Well, that's a lie. It started raining, got colder and the guy firing 7.62's as fast as he could on the bench next to me left.

IMAG0520.jpg

IMAG0518.jpg


Overall, this may just be the best one of the day.

IMAG0516.jpg


I also wasn't confident on calling as many 'good' shots today as usual, so it was definitely a bad day, but I don't think this would affect the groups this dramatically. But here's a couple more from the end of the day, and I guess that's it.

IMAG0522.jpg

IMAG0523.jpg
 
Okay, I'm thinking it's the scope.

Find a different (quality) scope to prove or disprove the integrity of your current scope.

It looks like you could shoot tighter groups with the irons!
 
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