22-250 grouping problem

The only thing I can come up with is that the barnes bullets dont seem to be getting enough rotation to stabilize in flight with the slow twisting barrel, but then why would the 55gr bullets have no problem grouping into an acceptable group?
Eric

Yup, 1:12" twist or faster for that 50gr TTSX. I just thought it would be good to point out that necessary rifling twist has nothing to do with bullet weight, and everything to do with bullet length. It just so happens that bullet length is very positively correlated with bullet weight.
 
From Sierra:

Accuracy Load: H380/ 38.0grs. 3500fps/ 1496ft. lbs.
Hunting Load: RE-15/ 35.3grs. 3600fps/ 1582ft. lbs.

I get excellent accuracy with the 55 grain HPBT.
 
Hello Gents:

I'm looking for anyone who seems to be having the same problem as myself. Any input would be handy.

I recently picked up a used WBY. Vanguard in 22-250 1:14 twist for shooting wolves and coyotes.

Once I got some free time I dropped on my leupold VX-3 (4.5-14X50) into the talley rings the gun came with and headed out to my shooting spot to sight in my new combo.

I figured I would start with cheap bullets to get close to a sight in, so I took along a box of Federal 55gr soft points and proceeded to get my new combo zeroed.

I proceeded to zero the gun at 100yds and then shot a decent 1.25" 5 shot group with the above mentioned cheap ammunition.

I then proceeded to shoot some of my hand-loaded rounds through the gun to ensure they would be zeroed correctly, (as now I figured I would only require a couple shots from the hand-loads to adjust to 0).

My current recipe is as follows:

Nosler Custom Brass
Win Lg Rifle Primers
38.5gr Varget
50gr TTSX (barnes)

The gun shot this combination absolutely horrible!! I have a difficult time placing 5 shots on a standard target (7"-8" group).

My bullets are seated out quite a good bit further than the factory stuff, but still clear of the lands and feed through the gun no problem.

The only thing I can come up with is that the barnes bullets dont seem to be getting enough rotation to stabilize in flight with the slow twisting barrel, but then why would the 55gr bullets have no problem grouping into an acceptable group?

I threw another scope on the gun tonight to see if that helps, I know the 50mm lens was awful close to the barrel and maybe that was affecting my grouping.

I am stumped either way..... I have never had a hand-load shoot so poorly and it was quite embarrasing that I could outshoot my hand-load grouping with the cheapest bullets you can buy from the factory.

Has anyone else run into this?

Cheers

Eric

Wow, I am having the same sort of issue. Mine is likely a scope issue too though. Factory ammo,(winchester 40gr.) shoots great, but I lose zero after 2 shots. I'm using a cheap little heavy barrel H&R. The Bushnell Sharpshooter isn't rated as shockpfoof so that's likely it. But the other issue is that I'm getting keyholes from my reloads. 55gr hornady Vmax B.T., 31gr H4895. Definately not stabilizing the bullet. I don't know if I should bump up the charge or change powders. Lee load data seems to be on the weak side of cautious anyway.
 
Wow, I am having the same sort of issue. Mine is likely a scope issue too though. Factory ammo,(winchester 40gr.) shoots great, but I lose zero after 2 shots. I'm using a cheap little heavy barrel H&R. The Bushnell Sharpshooter isn't rated as shockpfoof so that's likely it. But the other issue is that I'm getting keyholes from my reloads. 55gr hornady Vmax B.T., 31gr H4895. Definately not stabilizing the bullet. I don't know if I should bump up the charge or change powders. Lee load data seems to be on the weak side of cautious anyway.
You would problly do better to change to the 50 v-max .made all the difference in my rifle went from 1.75" groups with the 55 gr v-max to sub 1 " with the 50 gr v-max.also 31gr h 4895 in under the starting load in my manual so you could try pushing them faster.
 
I had stability problems with a 1:14 twist .22-250 stabilizing 53 gr TSXs, the group was large and the bullet holes elongated. If those 50 gr TTSXs are unstable they will show yaw on the target, you might try a 45 gr TSX which seem to stabilize in slow twist barrels. Making slight adjustments to the load or seating depth will not cure a 7 minute error.

If the bell of your scope touches the top of the barrel, that is an undesirable situation, but how it will reflect on your group size I can't say. If there is enough room between the bell and the barrel to slip in a piece of paper, it is unlikely to be a problem. If the bell touched the barrel during the mounting procedure, and you then tightened up the rings, the internal adjustments might have been damaged and a check by Korth might be in order.

When I set the scope into the rings there was clearance and after the scope was tightened down the paper would slide through, but it was very tight. But I think it was too close, I switched out with another just to eliminate one possible variable. Well that and my wife looked awful cranky when she realized I pulled the classy VX-3 off of her .257 Roberts....:D Ill use the 40mm leupold and see if that helps.

The bullets going through the target werent making larger holes than the 55gr soft-points but I am still leaning towards a stabilization problem.

Yup if you look at the Barnes site the minimum twist rate recomended for the TTSX 50gr .224 bullet is 1 - 12" .

One of my friends and I were discussing the twist rates required by barnes to make them stabilize and deduced that with increased velocity of the 22-250 compared to, say a .222, there might be a chance that they would stabilize in the 1:14 Barrel. I realize that the box states 1:12, but a 1:14 .222 shooting a 50gr at 3300fps vs a 22-250 with a 1:14 shooting the same bullet at 3800 is going to be a big difference in RPM. If one looks in the barnes (Number 4) manual you will see that the test rifle they used is a 1:14 for the 22-250.

Just for clarifications sake I also would like to bring to light the fact that, although this was my first load for the gun, I purchased the gun from a friend, whom I re-load with and shoot with regularely. He had worked through several loads up to maximum on some other brands of bullets and because I had this previous knowledge, I felt confident that I could start at this high of a load. I probably should have posted this earlier, but I didnt. Just for clarity I wanted to bring this up, so all you gents dont think I'm some sort of knuckle-headed re-loader. I will admit when working up to a maximum load I do not start at the minimum, but I do start below the max with a new gun.

This is also the reason I chose to load these bullets up at the above mentioned powder charge. As having them spinning slower wouldnt make much sense. I realize the risks involved in doing it, and I know it is not recommended, but based on the previous knowledge for the gun I felt confident in doing so. As mentioned before I also want to point out that after carefully inspecting the cases there are no signs of high pressure.

Thanks again all for the advice, I am going shooting this afternoon I will post some results this evening.

Cheers!!

Eric
 
He had worked through several loads up to maximum on some other brands of bullets and because I had this previous knowledge, I felt confident that I could start at this high of a load.

Were those other bullets monometal bullets like the TTSX? I find that these bullets usually produce higher pressures with lower powder charges, so if I switch to these bullets from another type, I reduce the powder charge.

As I posted earlier, it's your gun and your body, so it's your business what you choose to load. Unfortunately many newer shooters do read these forums and then try loads and techniques listed on these forums thinking that they are safe. I am only hoping that nobody else gets the idea that it is safe to start using a new load with powder charges that are well above the maximum charges listed by the powder and bullet manufacturers.
 
Were those other bullets monometal bullets like the TTSX? I find that these bullets usually produce higher pressures with lower powder charges, so if I switch to these bullets from another type, I reduce the powder charge.

As I posted earlier, it's your gun and your body, so it's your business what you choose to load. Unfortunately many newer shooters do read these forums and then try loads and techniques listed on these forums thinking that they are safe. I am only hoping that nobody else gets the idea that it is safe to start using a new load with powder charges that are well above the maximum charges listed by the powder and bullet manufacturers.

We have loaded Noslers, and Hornadys and also TSX in the 45 grain, all worked up to maximum load.

I have also edited my first post to include a warning stating that the load is higher than recommended. I do not wish for anyone to get hurt, nor get the wrong impression about loading bullets.

I apologize

I still have to go back to the Lyman book. In your mind is the Lyman manual Dangerous because they have a higher maximum powder charge than what Barnes calls for the exact same bullet? They call for a higher load than the manufacturer does for the manufacturers bullets in this case.

I am not trying to be rude, I am just honestly asking what you thoughts are on that?
 
I still have to go back to the Lyman book. In your mind is the Lyman manual Dangerous because they have a higher maximum powder charge than what Barnes calls for the exact same bullet?

Given that both companies used different rifles and likely different lots of powder, and possibly different brass, no I don't feel that their load is necessarily dangerous in the rifle that they tested it in with the lot#s of components that they used. The barrel that Lyman used, might have had an abnormally large chamber, or the powder lot may have been abnormally slow, or they might have used brass with a very large internal volume. One thing that you can be sure of, is that Lyman didn't start their testing with that combination of components, with the powder charge that you chose to start with.

However I will say, that I wouldn't feel comfortable choosing a powder charge that is above any powder charge in any manual that I can find for a 50gr bullet, to test a bullet that I haven't used previously in that specific gun.
 
if your friend had already worked up loads for said rifle why not use those loads.i have heard of guys actally ruining rifles because they used a load in a rifle that it was not worked up for.i usually use the powder makers data for any loads i do up.if your manual has no info/data for the bullet you are using,use the data for the next weight bullet up.since you are pushing a lighter bullet pressures should be less. should always start with starting load just in case.
 
Given that both companies used different rifles and likely different lots of powder, and possibly different brass, no I don't feel that their load is necessarily dangerous in the rifle that they tested it in with the lot#s of components that they used. The barrel that Lyman used, might have had an abnormally large chamber, or the powder lot may have been abnormally slow, or they might have used brass with a very large internal volume. One thing that you can be sure of, is that Lyman didn't start their testing with that combination of components, with the powder charge that you chose to start with.

However I will say, that I wouldn't feel comfortable choosing a powder charge that is above any powder charge in any manual that I can find for a 50gr bullet, to test a bullet that I haven't used previously in that specific gun.

You are right Stubblejumper, and I feel the need to apologize to you personally and also to the readers of this thread. It was a poor mistake in judgement to choose to load a new bullet with the maximum charge of powder that I could find. It was even more of a mistake to post it where someone may get the wrong idea and potentially hurt themselves. I was lucky enough for the mistake in judgement to not cause any damage or harm, someone else may not have the same fortune. I thought with the previous information that I knew of the gun it wouldnt be a problem. Either way it was foolish and I thank you for pointing that out to me.
 
Yup, 1:12" twist or faster for that 50gr TTSX. I just thought it would be good to point out that necessary rifling twist has nothing to do with bullet weight, and everything to do with bullet length. It just so happens that bullet length is very positively correlated with bullet weight.

Sounds like the reason for his problem Jordan, I don't reload for 22-250 but those monos are long versus weight because lead cores were denser. Lenght is everything in putting bullets to bed with twist rates.

Great point. You have probaly solved his problem.
 
i have a ruger 22 250 1 14 twist and bought some 50 gr barns varmit gernades they tumble out of the barrel try a different bullet 52 or 53 grain hornady also berger makes a bullet that specify 1 14 twist, havent tried them yet but should work those barns are prably for faster twist [i noticed after my problem with the barns that they said 1 9 twist or faster on the box]my rifle likes those cheap 40 round packs
 
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