custom actions
- Thread starter fatboyz
- Start date
Mystic Precision
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Summerland, BC
Just google 1000yd Benchrest records and you can get a good feeling for what the best in NA are doing at this distance.
10rds groups of 3 to 4" are setting the records.
That is amazing shooting but no where near the mechanical limits of the rifle and no where shooting in the 1's.
You can also look up the reports of the some the best LR rifle builders on 6mmBR. Most will say their rifles ready for competition when they shoot in the 2's. Some even tolerate 3's as in 1" or better at 300m.
Just the nature of the chamberings and bullets. LR combos just don't have the pure mechanical accuracy of the SR BR stuff.
So match the gear and performance to the tasks but more then anything else, get out there and shoot.
Climbing into an F1 car doesn't mean you can pull 4.5G's in a corner out of the gate.
Jerry
10rds groups of 3 to 4" are setting the records.
That is amazing shooting but no where near the mechanical limits of the rifle and no where shooting in the 1's.
You can also look up the reports of the some the best LR rifle builders on 6mmBR. Most will say their rifles ready for competition when they shoot in the 2's. Some even tolerate 3's as in 1" or better at 300m.
Just the nature of the chamberings and bullets. LR combos just don't have the pure mechanical accuracy of the SR BR stuff.
So match the gear and performance to the tasks but more then anything else, get out there and shoot.
Climbing into an F1 car doesn't mean you can pull 4.5G's in a corner out of the gate.
Jerry
This makes me smile because the F-class match last year I scored better than a few guys with rifles twice the cost of my Shilen Stevens combo. However that being said I'm definitly looking at purchasing a custom action in a Rem700 footprint. By the time you spend truing, sleeving blah, blah, blah might as well get a custom.
All barrels are factory barrels and rifles are as is from factory, no modifications.
The Savage boy's tell me that they are off the shelf, same as you and I would buy, but I tend to think that they are "hand chosen" off the shelf at the factory but this is just conjecture on my part.
I am sure they are lurking on here and snickering at me.......
Mystic Precision
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Summerland, BC
All barrels are factory barrels and rifles are as is from factory, no modifications.
The Savage boy's tell me that they are off the shelf, same as you and I would buy, but I tend to think that they are "hand chosen" off the shelf at the factory but this is just conjecture on my part.
I am sure they are lurking on here and snickering at me.......
I am sure they are speaking the absolute truth BUT how many rifles will Savage make and test fire before shipping to market.
Maybe,just maybe, a few days spent "test" firing could lead to nice results.
I really don't think the boys pick up a rifle at the Cabelas on the way to the match
No matter, I sincerely doubt ANY of these shoot better then 1/3 min anyways. Likely more like a solid 1/2 min.
Jerry
The last 2 world record's at 1000 yards for light gun would not have been possible with guns that shoot 1/2 moa or in the 0.3s and not even the 0.2s .
In 2002 Rich Desimone shot a 5 shot group measuring 1.564 and in 2007 Tom Sarver broke that record with a 1.403 group.
If they had of had the attitude that 1/2 moa was good enough they would have never set these amazing records. They maintained in the 0.1s out to 1000 yards, simply amazing...
It's ok to have differening opinions on what's " good enough". I know for myself I will always strive to shoot better( even if I don't accomplish it).
In 2002 Rich Desimone shot a 5 shot group measuring 1.564 and in 2007 Tom Sarver broke that record with a 1.403 group.
If they had of had the attitude that 1/2 moa was good enough they would have never set these amazing records. They maintained in the 0.1s out to 1000 yards, simply amazing...
It's ok to have differening opinions on what's " good enough". I know for myself I will always strive to shoot better( even if I don't accomplish it).
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lejarretnoir
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- 162km from Connaught
Different game than F-Class/Target Rifle.
You are allowed single string with unlimited sighters.
Not so with FC/TR, paired in two's or three's where wind constantly changes. Every shot is a sighter.
You're sitting comfortably in the shade at very solid, concrete BR table.
With FC/TR you're body is contorted laying in the grass exposed to the hot sun and rain.
Even with a .1 shooter, your advantage is minimal because the .3 MOA gun still scores a bullseye.
Is a custom action necessary when a barrel is block bedded and the action free floated? Would not a trued hunting action accomplish the same purpose?
The thread is about accuracy of custom and factory actions. The games available to display levels of accuracy vary widely as do the opinions on what constitutes accuracy. If someone is focued on just what is neccessary I believe they are not as likely to be successful on a regular basis against the guys who always strive for perfection. This of course is just my opinion .
To answer the original Op's question I believe factory actions can be as accurate but often take some work to do so.
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The wind blows them in and the wind blows them out. A single group at 1000yd BR match is a crap shoot. Right relay, right bench, right time of day.
right wind. Somebody nearly always wins the lottery, even though the chances are vanishingly small. Now if he does it for an agg, under match conditions, that's different.
NormB
lejarretnoir
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- 162km from Connaught
Now we come to it.
Even a custom action is not perfect. It still has tolerance built in to function or moving parts would seize up. There is also human error. Sometimes striving for perfection is finding what works in an unperfect world.
Custom action Deuce, Hard to beleive
Legacy of the Perfect Scoreby Layne Simpson • September 23, 2010 • Comments (0)
Three-and-a-half decades ago, a McMillan benchrest rifle shot the first registered perfect score. Today, the company’s rifles carry on the tradition of above-par excellence.
By Layne Simpson
The very first five-shot group I fired with a McMillan Legacy and the Federal 175-grain Gold Medal loading of the .308 Winchester measured 0.299 inch. And I really wasn’t trying all that hard.
When testing a new rifle, I usually start the program by firing five barrel-fouling rounds before getting down to business, and I had quickly sent four Sierra MatchKings downrange before noticing how close they had clustered on the target. That got my attention, and after carefully squeezing off my fifth shot, I was pleased to see it snuggle inside its mates with no increase in group size. What a pleasant way to kick off the evaluation of a new rifle!
I was impressed by the tiny size of that group, but I was by no means surprised by the accuracy of the rifle because the McMillan name has been associated with the accuracy world for a long time.
Brothers Mac, Pat, and Gale McMillan started handloading prior to World War II and became involved in informal benchrest shooting shortly after the war. They often traveled from their homes in Arizona to several other states in order to compete. This was quite a few years before registered benchrest competition as we know it today got started.
I first became aware of the McMillans about 35 years ago when reading about a group shot by Mac in an NBRSA-sanctioned match at the Skunk Creek rifle range near Phoenix. The date was September 23, 1973, (Mac’s 59th birthday) and he was shooting a 10.5-pound Light Varmint class rifle in .222 Remington. It was just about an all-McMillan rifle. Mac had built the action, and brother Pat had designed it. The rifle also had a barrel made by Pat and a fiberglass stock built by brother Gale. It wore a Leupold 12X scope that had been bumped to 24X by Wally Siebert. The dies used by Mac to make his 50-grain bullets from J4 jackets were also made by Pat. Mac’s competition load consisted of Remington cases, 23.5 grains of Hodgdon BL-C (Lot No. 1), and a prototype primer that would soon thereafter be introduced by CCI as the BR-4.
A five-shot group fired by Mac during that 100-yard event was measured by match officials with a dial caliper modified by the addition of a clear plexiglass plate containing a .22-caliber reticle. All five of his shots fit inside the reticle for an incredible group-size measurement of 0.000 inch. For the first time in recorded history, the perfect group had been shot!
Shortly thereafter, the group was measured with a special 60X microscope capable of accuracy to 0.0001 inch, and it still came out at 0.000 inch. The target was then mailed around to seven members of the NBRSA records committee (who each measured it with less sophisticated instruments), and they came up with an average measurement of 0.009 inch. Other shooters who were there when Mac shot the match were convinced that it was indeed the perfect group and were disappointed to see it grow in size a bit when officially measured, but it all turned out to be moot since as far as I know, the record continues to stand today as the smallest five-shot group ever fired in registered benchrest competition.
Pat eventually sold his barrel-making business, and Gale went from making a few fiberglass stocks in his garage for his benchrest shooting buddies to founding a company called McMillan Fiberglass Stocks in 1973. During those early years, the company mainly produced stocks for benchrest shooting, but in 1975 a contract was received from the U.S. Marine Corps for stocks to be used in building M40A1 sniper rifles. A similar stock known as the GPH (General Purpose Hunting) was soon offered to hunters and varmint shooters in the private sector.
Legacy of the Perfect Scoreby Layne Simpson • September 23, 2010 • Comments (0)
Three-and-a-half decades ago, a McMillan benchrest rifle shot the first registered perfect score. Today, the company’s rifles carry on the tradition of above-par excellence.
By Layne Simpson
The very first five-shot group I fired with a McMillan Legacy and the Federal 175-grain Gold Medal loading of the .308 Winchester measured 0.299 inch. And I really wasn’t trying all that hard.
When testing a new rifle, I usually start the program by firing five barrel-fouling rounds before getting down to business, and I had quickly sent four Sierra MatchKings downrange before noticing how close they had clustered on the target. That got my attention, and after carefully squeezing off my fifth shot, I was pleased to see it snuggle inside its mates with no increase in group size. What a pleasant way to kick off the evaluation of a new rifle!
I was impressed by the tiny size of that group, but I was by no means surprised by the accuracy of the rifle because the McMillan name has been associated with the accuracy world for a long time.
Brothers Mac, Pat, and Gale McMillan started handloading prior to World War II and became involved in informal benchrest shooting shortly after the war. They often traveled from their homes in Arizona to several other states in order to compete. This was quite a few years before registered benchrest competition as we know it today got started.
I first became aware of the McMillans about 35 years ago when reading about a group shot by Mac in an NBRSA-sanctioned match at the Skunk Creek rifle range near Phoenix. The date was September 23, 1973, (Mac’s 59th birthday) and he was shooting a 10.5-pound Light Varmint class rifle in .222 Remington. It was just about an all-McMillan rifle. Mac had built the action, and brother Pat had designed it. The rifle also had a barrel made by Pat and a fiberglass stock built by brother Gale. It wore a Leupold 12X scope that had been bumped to 24X by Wally Siebert. The dies used by Mac to make his 50-grain bullets from J4 jackets were also made by Pat. Mac’s competition load consisted of Remington cases, 23.5 grains of Hodgdon BL-C (Lot No. 1), and a prototype primer that would soon thereafter be introduced by CCI as the BR-4.
A five-shot group fired by Mac during that 100-yard event was measured by match officials with a dial caliper modified by the addition of a clear plexiglass plate containing a .22-caliber reticle. All five of his shots fit inside the reticle for an incredible group-size measurement of 0.000 inch. For the first time in recorded history, the perfect group had been shot!
Shortly thereafter, the group was measured with a special 60X microscope capable of accuracy to 0.0001 inch, and it still came out at 0.000 inch. The target was then mailed around to seven members of the NBRSA records committee (who each measured it with less sophisticated instruments), and they came up with an average measurement of 0.009 inch. Other shooters who were there when Mac shot the match were convinced that it was indeed the perfect group and were disappointed to see it grow in size a bit when officially measured, but it all turned out to be moot since as far as I know, the record continues to stand today as the smallest five-shot group ever fired in registered benchrest competition.
Pat eventually sold his barrel-making business, and Gale went from making a few fiberglass stocks in his garage for his benchrest shooting buddies to founding a company called McMillan Fiberglass Stocks in 1973. During those early years, the company mainly produced stocks for benchrest shooting, but in 1975 a contract was received from the U.S. Marine Corps for stocks to be used in building M40A1 sniper rifles. A similar stock known as the GPH (General Purpose Hunting) was soon offered to hunters and varmint shooters in the private sector.
This is interesting stuff, it got me doing a bit of looking around on the net. What I gather is that not all custom actions are created equally, some full out bench rest actions have the tightest tolerances, and others designed for tactical/ hunting are looser.. and there are a number that fall in between these extremes to varying degrees.
The other thing I concluded is that a custom action is needed to be competitive in SR BR, but at the longer distances its more about wind reading, and it doesn't matter if your gun's in the 0's or in the 2's. When you have six or seven feet of bullet drift in varying winds how would it matter?
What I'd like to know is just how tight an action needs to be to compete in SR BR.( In my area this is the most accessible type of precision shooting to me, and you can just go and "pay as you go". ) Is there an action that would do the trick in this discipline (I mean at least be in the top half of scores), and still be loose enough for field use and F class?
The other thing I am wondering about SR BR is the reloading. I understand that folks are loading to very high pressures, like 80 000. I suppose the tight actions are needed for this. Are these guys getting the accuracy because of the tight and true actions, or because of the extreme pressures and accuracy nodes they are loading in?
The other thing I concluded is that a custom action is needed to be competitive in SR BR, but at the longer distances its more about wind reading, and it doesn't matter if your gun's in the 0's or in the 2's. When you have six or seven feet of bullet drift in varying winds how would it matter?
What I'd like to know is just how tight an action needs to be to compete in SR BR.( In my area this is the most accessible type of precision shooting to me, and you can just go and "pay as you go". ) Is there an action that would do the trick in this discipline (I mean at least be in the top half of scores), and still be loose enough for field use and F class?
The other thing I am wondering about SR BR is the reloading. I understand that folks are loading to very high pressures, like 80 000. I suppose the tight actions are needed for this. Are these guys getting the accuracy because of the tight and true actions, or because of the extreme pressures and accuracy nodes they are loading in?
Mystic Precision
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Summerland, BC
Many will say otherwise, but I strongly recommend AGAINST loading to proof pressures. The metal used in an action degrades rapidly at these pressures.
Structural failure will most certainly screw up your group.
Also, when loading at these extremes,tuning can be very problematic. You can definitely shoot in the 0's and 1's at standard magnum pressures.
Personally, I see more variance from barrel to barrel then anything an action can do for me. All I want from an action is lock up solidly and fire/extract the case.
The rest will be determined by the chamber/install, barrel and bullet. The load tuning will get the most out of what is there.
For SRBR, tighter can be better. Dirt is usually not an issue.
For field shooting and F class, the ability to function when wet and dirty is paramount. Here some compromises have to be taken.
Or use an action with a floating bolt head and get the best of both worlds. Yes, you can get custom actions with floating bolt heads and the number is growing.
Jerry
Structural failure will most certainly screw up your group.
Also, when loading at these extremes,tuning can be very problematic. You can definitely shoot in the 0's and 1's at standard magnum pressures.
Personally, I see more variance from barrel to barrel then anything an action can do for me. All I want from an action is lock up solidly and fire/extract the case.
The rest will be determined by the chamber/install, barrel and bullet. The load tuning will get the most out of what is there.
For SRBR, tighter can be better. Dirt is usually not an issue.
For field shooting and F class, the ability to function when wet and dirty is paramount. Here some compromises have to be taken.
Or use an action with a floating bolt head and get the best of both worlds. Yes, you can get custom actions with floating bolt heads and the number is growing.
Jerry
Flyin lead, my opinion is, you want to shoot SRBR use a rifle designed for it. SRBR guys do not use there BR rifle or action to shoot F-Class. We have a rifle for each discipline just as we would have a different rifle for 1000 yard BR.
For F-Class, I would use a dedicated rifle for it. F-Class is shot in different conditions than SR. In SR we are out of the rain and dirt for most parts. The ranges we shoot at have covered firing lines so we stay dry. We sit at benches in comfort trying to shoot groups in the .1's. This is unlike an F-Class match where you may have to wear your rain gear or lay in the mud, lay in the beating sun getting burned or sun stroke.........
On another note I wonder why one would want to shoot F-class because of what I just said????????? You need to be fit and trim to shoot F-Class. You have to be able to get off of the ground or not have any neck trouble. You can't get a round belly like me and be content....... LMAO.
Joking aside, SR and F-Class are a bit different. A bit specialized in there own ways.
For F-Class, I would use a dedicated rifle for it. F-Class is shot in different conditions than SR. In SR we are out of the rain and dirt for most parts. The ranges we shoot at have covered firing lines so we stay dry. We sit at benches in comfort trying to shoot groups in the .1's. This is unlike an F-Class match where you may have to wear your rain gear or lay in the mud, lay in the beating sun getting burned or sun stroke.........
On another note I wonder why one would want to shoot F-class because of what I just said????????? You need to be fit and trim to shoot F-Class. You have to be able to get off of the ground or not have any neck trouble. You can't get a round belly like me and be content....... LMAO.
Joking aside, SR and F-Class are a bit different. A bit specialized in there own ways.
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