Ontario Cougars!

[track]

Just so I get this straight.

& feel free to correct the numbers as I don't have, nor care to spend the time to get them but it goes like this.

80-90,000 members on Gunnutz, of which 30-40,000 are in Ont!
30-40,000 Ont gunnutz (who do tend to spend more time in the outdoors than non-gunnutz) & of which how many claim to have seen a cougar in the 1-50 yrs of outdoor activities?
Your saying 50
I saw nowhere near that number, but lets say 10-15 in this forum.
Can you calculate how many hrs it took per sighting?
35,000 people in 1-50yrs of outdoor activities for 10-15 sightings reported.

Yep Ont must be overrun with Cougars from all those sightings

In Alberta, cougar country, there are less sightings then what people think dispite the numbers that we have in comparison to most provinces. They are a most secretive and elusive creature. For 30 years I lived, hunted and guided in the foothills and Rocky Mountians and not once have I sighted a cougar. A friend of mine who lived most of his life in the Crownest Pass, Alberta (died at 71 years old) only saw three cougars. This good old friend is the only true woodsman who I ever met, he always lived in the bush picking berries, pine cones, fishing, hunting, hiking, cutting firewood, etc.
I don't deny that Ontario has cougars, I think they may, its just that they are most elusive.

 

[Ardent]

Now that is an awesome statement from a guy using an argument he needs physical proof opposed to the words of others to believe something, made my day, thanks man.

I'm afraid you've missed the point; I don't believe in god either.

Just so I get this straight.

& feel free to correct the numbers as I don't have, nor care to spend the time to get them but it goes like this.

80-90,000 members on Gunnutz, of which 30-40,000 are in Ont!
30-40,000 Ont gunnutz (who do tend to spend more time in the outdoors than non-gunnutz) & of which how many claim to have seen a cougar in the 1-50 yrs of outdoor activities?
Your saying 50
I saw nowhere near that number, but lets say 10-15 in this forum.
Can you calculate how many hrs it took per sighting?
35,000 people in 1-50yrs of outdoor activities for 10-15 sightings reported.

Yep Ont must be overrun with Cougars from all those sightings

A bunch of guys on the internet still doesn't make up for the fact there are a ton of Cougars here, and utterly near none there (likely an isolated few, or extremely tiny population). The abundance of Cougars is far more important in this comparison as you just don't get sightings without them. Nobody would argue Ontario has an abundance of them.

track mentioned it too, you don't need to be from Ontario to know something's fishy about the number of sightings being claimed. We both know people who've lived their whole lives in prime Cougar country, hunted it the same, and have never had a single encounter like all those described here. Cougars are beyond rare to see, even where they live. For a chorus of guys in just this thread to claim they've seen them, some multiple times or multiple animals, raises the common sense alarm especially given these creatures are so rare in Ontario a trail cam hasn't managed to catch one (trail cams catch them in the West routinely). I'll believe it when they trap and collar one, also done routinely in the West, but not Ontario yet it seems.

 

[canadian hunter312]

I'm afraid you've missed the point; I don't believe in god either.



A bunch of guys on the internet still doesn't make up for the fact there are a ton of Cougars here, and utterly near none there (likely an isolated few, or extremely tiny population). The abundance of Cougars is far more important in this comparison as you just don't get sightings without them. Nobody would argue Ontario has an abundance of them.

track mentioned it too, you don't need to be from Ontario to know something's fishy about the number of sightings being claimed. We both know people who've lived their whole lives in prime Cougar country, hunted it the same, and have never had a single encounter like all those described here. Cougars are beyond rare to see, even where they live. For a chorus of guys in just this thread to claim they've seen them, some multiple times or multiple animals, raises the common sense alarm especially given these creatures are so rare in Ontario a trail cam hasn't managed to catch one (trail cams catch them in the West routinely). I'll believe it when they trap and collar one, also done routinely in the West, but not Ontario yet it seems.

obviously trail cam pics are going to be common in an area that has a healthy population of big cats. i fail to understand why you keep comparing west to east as the mnr isnt going to waste the time or money (that they dont have) to trap and collar a cat to prove they're here, especially after denying it for so long. as previously mentioned, its common to get ZERO trail cam pics of yotes in areas with confirmed populations. two years ago i had 2 trail cams out and captured hundreds of pics of deer, turkey, and small game with only one yote pic even though there was at least 4 diferent yotes in that one bush. you seem to think trail cams draw animals in?

curious...how many pics of cougars do you see out your way that were taken by someone with a hand held cam walking through the bush NOT looking for cougars? nil?

 

[Ardent]

obviously trail cam pics are going to be common in an area that has a healthy population of big cats. i fail to understand why you keep comparing west to east as the mnr isnt going to waste the time or money (that they dont have) to trap and collar a cat to prove they're here, especially after denying it for so long. as previously mentioned, its common to get ZERO trail cam pics of yotes in areas with confirmed populations. two years ago i had 2 trail cams out and captured hundreds of pics of deer, turkey, and small game with only one yote pic even though there was at least 4 diferent yotes in that one bush. you seem to think trail cams draw animals in?

curious...how many pics of cougars do you see out your way that were taken by someone with a hand held cam walking through the bush NOT looking for cougars? nil?

Seems I've really stung you with some note there. We're talking about the entire province of Ontario, I may be from the West and have spent very little time in Ontario, but I do understand Ontario is huge and has a ton of hunters. Even in Louisiana, where there are very very few Cougars, they get them on trail cams. But somehow Ontario Cougars are more elusive than all other populations. How many pics do we see out here of people running into Cougars? A reasonable few actually, one was even in the Calgary Herald of a Cougar near town. The pics happen here, they don't there, I'd expect with even the fifteen or so guys in this thread claiming sightings one would have had a camera. And the guys claiming here are the tip of the iceberg, there would be thousands of claimed sightings province wide and not one photo- not even a tawny smudge at 800 yards.

What makes quite a few of us in this thread skeptical is the number of people saying "Seen em twice", "Ran in front of my truck ten feet away", "Saw one in Bancroft" etc when folks in genuine, well populated Cougar country aren't seeing them for years. How about when the MNR invests in a trail cam, I'll jump on board? They seem to have them coming into their bait sights but took zero photos. I've said over and over I believe they're there in extremely low numbers, I have an extremely hard time believing more are seen in Ontario than Cougar country.

 

[skypilot]

From the Daily Observer 2 years ago.

"Currently, Rick Rosatte, a research scientist in co-operation with the Ministry of Natural Resources and Trent University, is involved in a study to scientifically establish the presence of cougars in Ontario.

In his recent report, he said at least one cougar has been documented on camera near Sunderland in the Barrie area."

Here is the MNR view. http://www.owensoundsuntimes.com/ArticleDisplay.aspx?e=2634721&archive=true

 

[H4831]

In Alberta, cougar country, there are less sightings then what people think dispite the numbers that we have in comparison to most provinces. They are a most secretive and elusive creature. For 30 years I lived, hunted and guided in the foothills and Rocky Mountians and not once have I sighted a cougar. A friend of mine who lived most of his life in the Crownest Pass, Alberta (died at 71 years old) only saw three cougars. This good old friend is the only true woodsman who I ever met, he always lived in the bush picking berries, pine cones, fishing, hunting, hiking, cutting firewood, etc.
I don't deny that Ontario has cougars, I think they may, its just that they are most elusive.

Your post made me feel good!
Of all the time I have spent in the bush and backwoods, I have never seen a cougar. I thought I must be the only one who has never seen one.
One time in mid fall when an inch or so of snow had fallen and was melting fast, I came across an old girls smoking hot tracks, with two kittens. Must have been very close, but never saw them.
One summer I found a cougar den, with fresh tracks going in and out.
I have seen cougar tracks in the winter, and yes, I can tell the difference between cougar and lynx tracks, but so far, no live cougar.

 

[canadian hunter312]

Seems I've really stung you with some note there. We're talking about the entire province of Ontario, I may be from the West and have spent very little time in Ontario, but I do understand Ontario is huge and has a ton of hunters. Even in Louisiana, where there are very very few Cougars, they get them on trail cams. But somehow Ontario Cougars are more elusive than all other populations. How many pics do we see out here of people running into Cougars? A reasonable few actually, one was even in the Calgary Herald of a Cougar near town. The pics happen here, they don't there, I'd expect with even the fifteen or so guys in this thread claiming sightings one would have had a camera. And the guys claiming here are the tip of the iceberg, there would be thousands of claimed sightings province wide and not one photo- not even a tawny smudge at 800 yards.

What makes quite a few of us in this thread skeptical is the number of people saying "Seen em twice", "Ran in front of my truck ten feet away", "Saw one in Bancroft" etc when folks in genuine, well populated Cougar country aren't seeing them for years. How about when the MNR invests in a trail cam, I'll jump on board? They seem to have them coming into their bait sights but took zero photos. I've said over and over I believe they're there in extremely low numbers, I have an extremely hard time believing more are seen in Ontario than Cougar country.

well, it's just annoying to be labeled a liar because i couldn't stop my atv, get out my cell, and take a pic of an animal that was in view for a half second. like i said, i doubted their existence until i saw one.

now, could you answer the question please...


how many pics of cougars do you see out your way that were taken by someone with a hand held cam walking through the bush NOT looking for cougars?

 

[Macarena Man]

H4831.......not sure where in B.C. that you live. Vancouver Island has a healthy cat population. The last cat that I saw was up Stemwinder, in the Hedley area.
He was on the road, and I was able to roll the truck closer. He lept to the high side and I took the photo.

Interesting thread......

 

[cheapsk8]

Quote:

well,it's just annoying to be labeled a liar because i couldn't stop my atv,get out my cell, and take a pic of an animal that was in view for a half second. like i said,i doubted their existence until i saw one.

I was offended too. I mean, I have nothing to gain by making the statement I did. Nobody here knows me. But then I realized this internet expert must be right. Lol. You nust remember the old saying....
"Arguing some things with certain people is like teaching a pig to sing. It accomplishes nothing....and only irratates
the hell out of the pig".w

I mean what the hell do I know anyway? Ive only been trapping 15 years now and spent my entire life in the remote Northern Ontario wilderness. I guess I was mistaken BOTH times.

Not worth your effort.

 

[Pyd]

If nothing else, this thread has proven to be a lesson in the comradery of the people who share the outdoors, or the lack there of. We like to think that because we share a similar hobby we are entitled to share our experiences without prejudice, it simply is not so, and this thread is proof of that.
The beginning of this thread brought out the typical CGN'ers who argue for the simple fact of the argument, and as it progressed some have stuck around and kept an open mind but remain in a position of wanting proof before the facts can be digested, and I can understand that position. However, "facts" in that situation will never be enough, I would put more stock in to what a fellow CGN'er had to say than the MNR who seems to have a motive that the rest of us will never understand, and yet the MNR admits the presence.
I do know one thing, I am starting to feel pretty darn special for what I witnessed, it's not like it's a sighting of something that doesn't exist anywhere on the planet, it's just something new around here, and I am just happy to have a moment in my life so extraordinary that it promotes speculation from others.
For what it's worth, I don't think we have a population of Cougars around here, I tend to lean towards a released animal, be it from a private citizen or a higher form.

 

[Ardent]

how many pics of cougars do you see out your way that were taken by someone with a hand held cam walking through the bush NOT looking for cougars?

As I already mentioned, a reasonable few, they have even made it to the newspapers. None from Ontario despite what seems to be more sightings.

 

[Caydel]

From the Daily Observer 2 years ago.

"Currently, Rick Rosatte, a research scientist in co-operation with the Ministry of Natural Resources and Trent University, is involved in a study to scientifically establish the presence of cougars in Ontario.

In his recent report, he said at least one cougar has been documented on camera near Sunderland in the Barrie area."

Here is the MNR view. http://www.owensoundsuntimes.com/ArticleDisplay.aspx?e=2634721&archive=true

The actual report (http://www.ofnc.ca/cfn/125/116-125_03_11007_rosatte_WEB.pdf) has a 2007 photo from Coldwater (Just N of Barrie) of a cougar in a field which the MNR investigated on-site and confirmed to be 'consistent with a cougar' and not faked. IE, the photo is real, and it looks like a cougar, but they don't want to say it certainly is a cougar. The report also mentions an infrared trail camera image from Sunderland that looks like a cougar.

Anyways, I suspect that most people in this thread did not bother to read the report. The evidence that they are basing their conclusion on isn't a few isolated rumors etc. - They've been examining three classes of evidence:

Class 1 evidence included 1) Cougar DNA extracted from tissue, 2) hair determined to be Cougar through a comparison with reference samples
known to be Cougar, 3) Cougar scat, 4) a photograph of a Cougar, or 5) tracks confirmed through expert analysis to be those of a Cougar. Photographs of tracks thought to be made by a Cougar were confirmed by
at least two and up to four different tracking experts and Cougar biologists from across North America.

Class 2 evidence included sightings by a qualified observer such as a professional biologist or OMNR staff member (e.g., technician) with an extensive biological background that included mammalian identification.

Class 3 evidence included sightings that were reported by an unqualified observer but that, based on evidence or descriptions of the animal, I deemed credible. Sightings that were identified by the observer as “black
Cougars” or “black panthers” were not included, as there are no records of a black phase of Cougar occurring in North America (Texas Parks and Wildlife
2011*). Credible black Cougar sightings were assumed to be exotic cats, such as a melanistic Jaguar (Panthera onca) or a melanistic Leopard (Panthera pardus) (Figure 2).

Anyways, the evidence he presents includes 15 confirmed sets of tracks, hair samples from the Sudbury area, scat from Wainfleet and Kenora, one photo from the Orillia area, and infrared image from Sunderland, and a photo from Gowganda. There were 13 Class 2 sightings, as defined above, 9 of which were in the Cornwall region (yippee!), and 450 Class 3 sightings, each of which was interviewed and judged to be consistent with a cougar sighting.

Yes, *most* cougar sightings are probably misidentifications. But many aren't, judging by the physical evidence that was collected.

 

[trebor2880]

I wonder if the is any corelation to the proximity of cougar sightings to the harvesting of "Magic Mushrooms".
...just sayin'.

 

[Ardent]

I shouldn't laugh but that is amusing...

Cougars are in Ontario, and I'm sure they've been seen, just not by what, fifteen people in this one thread on a online gun website alone?

 

[Pyd]

I wonder if the is any corelation to the proximity of cougar sightings to the harvesting of "Magic Mushrooms".
...just sayin'.

Ya, dude..Ya totally got it, that must be it. And again we owe the finest of CGN for the valuable input. Thank goodness we have reached this level of intelligence , without extraordinary and well thought out replies like yours we would all be lost.
I freaking love this place!
Half the time I feel like I am communicating with one of my kids, one wants to understand, while the other simply lacks comprehension due to age. I can understand why someone would want to defy why the Government is directing you to believe, but I fail to understand why someone would call out a member for their own experience.
Keyboard commandos should be as rare as cougars, that would make the world a better place.

 

[H4831]

Such an interesting thread that I just have to add a little more.
Prospectors had an old adage, "Gold is where you find it." This is also very true of cougars.
In my posting I said I had never seen a wild cougar, in spite of spending more than a little time in the bush and backcountry. This did not mean I was not in cougar country, I just hadn't seen any. I did say that I was very close to a female and cubs, making fresh tracks in the rapidly melting snow. I also said I once found an active cougar den, with fresh tracks coming and going. I didn't stay to investigate this site, because I had no gun with me!
A friend built a new log house, back a couple hundred feet from a major BC highway, with a very well known resort lake on the other side of this highway. The attic still had an open doorway, or window opening, from the outside. As he sat in his front room on a Sunday afternoon, he heard a noise in the attic, which he thought sure would be the kids in the attic and the attic floor wasn't constructed to hold people.
He charged outside, let a healthy roar out of him, "Get the hell out of that attic." With that, a large male cougar lept from the attic and tore away in the bush!
This is unusual behavier for a cougar, but it happened just as told. We were visiting the people at that house, just days after it happened and it was quite a topic of conversation, considering the kids were just outside somewhere, playing.
I think too, it is insulting not to believe these people who say they have seen cougars. Especially experienced bushmen!
Cougars are very illusive and unpredictable. Grizzly bear could fit this same heading, but I have seen the odd grizzly in the bush.
The same illusiveness and unpredictable traits could be applied to each of wolverine and lynx, but I have seen a few of each of those in the bush.
Just not a cougar.

 

[vviking]

Such an interesting thread that I just have to add a little more.
Prospectors had an old adage, "Gold is where you find it." This is also very true of cougars.
In my posting I said I had never seen a wild cougar, in spite of spending more than a little time in the bush and backcountry. This did not mean I was not in cougar country, I just hadn't seen any. I did say that I was very close to a female and cubs, making fresh tracks in the rapidly melting snow. I also said I once found an active cougar den, with fresh tracks coming and going. I didn't stay to investigate this site, because I had no gun with me!
A friend built a new log house, back a couple hundred feet from a major BC highway, with a very well known resort lake on the other side of this highway. The attic still had an open doorway, or window opening, from the outside. As he sat in his front room on a Sunday afternoon, he heard a noise in the attic, which he thought sure would be the kids in the attic and the attic floor wasn't constructed to hold people.
He charged outside, let a healthy roar out of him, "Get the hell out of that attic." With that, a large male cougar lept from the attic and tore away in the bush!
This is unusual behavier for a cougar, but it happened just as told. We were visiting the people at that house, just days after it happened and it was quite a topic of conversation, considering the kids were just outside somewhere, playing.
I think too, it is insulting not to believe these people who say they have seen cougars. Especially experienced bushmen!
Cougars are very illusive and unpredictable. Grizzly bear could fit this same heading, but I have seen the odd grizzly in the bush.
The same illusiveness and unpredictable traits could be applied to each of wolverine and lynx, but I have seen a few of each of those in the bush.
Just not a cougar.

Entertaining post, H4831 ..... as are so many on this thread.

Seems to me, that the one thing we all (easter's or wester's) can agree on ... "Cougar's are very ellusive" .... ('cept maybe that odd "super-social" individual, who likes to prowl about in folk's attic's). And, a cougar no doubt would be the least likely creature on this continent to un-neccessarily divulge his presence to a human.

I have never seen one, so am not yet one of those fortunate <'shroom toking> Ont. CGN 'special 15' eyewitness'. However, the tracks that I have seen, were not made by a ghost, nor a three toe'd sloth. neither.

Brings to mind the time, quite a few years back now, was driving a bush trail, summertime, pacing alongside a bull moose, who was moseying along parallel to the road, just a few yards into the bush. Along comes a MNR CO on patrol, passes the moose, then the windows go down to exchange our pleasantries. Say's I ...... "did ya see that that big 'ol moose?". Says he ..... "No moose here, we are south of the Severn River."(and we were) Say's I .... "You didn't see him?, he's right over there". CO's reply? .... (with a wry half smile) "no moose here, drive carefull".

The local Wolverine is proving just as difficult to lay eyes on ..... he tries to bait me by passing close to the outhouse, while vviking is "voting liberal". Just a bit too slow on the snowshoe's these days, to track him down.

 

[maple_leaf_eh]

The Ottawa Citizen had another cougar story 24 Mar 12, complete with snapshot. An Ontarian saw something, got the binos and then reached for his camera. The photo is colour of a darkish cat in foot tall grass at about 100yds. The experts agreed, yup looks like a cougar. I guess now that MNR has officially acknowledged their existence, it will be easier to get stories published.

 

[Superbrad]

With all due respect to anyone here.... I truly believe that if some of those posting the anti ontario comments actually spent a good amount of time living and hunting here the atmosphere may be different....

I have hunted 7 of our provinces and I think Ontario ranks amongst the tops... not the top ... but amongst for game and variety....

I can easily see where our diversity would draw a cougar population in from the south... but, like Ardent, I would like to see proof and don't think everyone who "sees a cougar" has actually seen a cougar

 

[ice2152]

With all due respect to anyone here.... I truly believe that if some of those posting the ati ontario comments actually spent a good amount of time living and hunting here the atmospher may be different....

I have hunted 7 of our provinces and I think Ontario ranks amongst the tops... not the top ... but amongst for game and variety....

I can easily see where our diversity would draw a cougar population in from the south... but, like ARdent, I would like to see proof and don't think everyone who "sees a cougar" has actually seen a cougar

I saw a news broadcast in the last 5-10 years with video of a cougar in the orangeville area. Heavily populated area of southern ontario. I believe it was the VR news. I live in this region. Lots of open farm land with corridors of bush. Lots of deer and turkey in the bush. The video was shot by one of the locals in his back lot bush.