WRAS 3-Gun, 2012 Shooting Schedule @ Spruce Grove

All the divisional discussion is a good sign. It shows how successful WRAS is becoming.

The 3 gun that albertacoyotecaller and I run here gets between 12-18 shooters per event. It's just not practical to set up multiple divisions for that few folks. Everyone runs in one division, unless there's enough big-bore guns to have a Heavy division. We don't permit comped/braked/red-dotted pistols and that does have the "benefit" of keeping things more even within the group.

Maybe we'll get 25 shooters on the 9th. That would probably force us into creating more divisions.
 
yeah i think red may have mis worded (or am i mis reading?) his initial write up, since it looks like he wants magnified in with unmagnified scopes, which is a definite no go,

no 3 gun in the states puts magnified optics in the same class as irons/1x,

if you feel bad about being in open just because you have a magnified optic on your rifle, but plain jane pistol/shotty, just imagine how it would feel to shoot irons/1x when people can just zoom in on those farther targets, its really just gonna shift the (perceived) problem/unfairness to someone else. any complaining about how its not a distinct advantage to run a magnified optic will be met by the retort " then run irons or a 1x if its all the same"

adding a division between open and irons is the long term solution of course, easy enough to accommodate, assuming there is enough people who sign up for it. with only 40 ish people at a match, they would have to be very evenly split to get three decent sized groups going.

that way we dont have anyone getting the short end of the stick.
 
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I'd still hate to see there be too much focus on divisions.

Obviously you shouldn't be competing against someone with open guns or anything like that, but some sanity should be called for.

I've always felt that WRAS focuses on fun, camaraderie, sport and first and formost than anything else.

Atleast I've always tried to carry the relaxed and fun part by keeping things interesting when it's my turn to run the stage, heheheh...

Splitting up into too many divisions always attracts the more "interesting folk" lets call them :)

I really like the idea of the 5 round mag class, it'd give alot of people a chance to feel less intimidated and get more people out there.
 
Basically USPSA Multi gun has rules for Limited and Tactical, one allows only one optic and the other allows only one non magnified optic.

These are test divisions based on the fact that we are finally getting large enough to need didvisons as Steveo said.

Right now I would like to see how the results break down once we classify people as open or standard, I'm wondering how much difference it will make.

My concern was mixing the magnified and non magnifed scopes together.

Then the issue arrises of the idea of a secondary set of irons, not as BUIS but as a sighting system. Do we count them as a second set of sight and move them into open, does an ACOG with the peep sights on top connt as Irons, do offset irons at 45 deg move a person into open?

If we have a lot of feedback that we want to change up the divisions then we will really look at it.


I do like the idea of a 5 round mag class, and I think we will do it, however I think that this year we have only had on 5 round shooter at each match, you guys need to plan better :)
 
full disclosure: ive brought only 5 rounders to a match before... lamesauce :(

Id break out my bolt action remington if we could get a bunch of people with 5's to actually show up at the same match. would be fun.
 
As far as I know, any irons do NOT count as an optic, offset mounted or traditional. Open is only with two actual rifle optics (or optics on shotgun or pistol). In the states, they have more rules with mag capacity that can bump you into open as well, that we don't have to deal with here, unfortunately.

I'm not sure how to deal with 1x optics on a rifle. My gut feeling is that they would be with the irons. (Limited or Standard or whatever you call it)

Personally, I think following USPSA rules is not the best idea, as they were the last one into the game, so to speak. I think they tried to avoid Multi Gun, until they had no choice. The outlaw matches were hashing this out years before USPSA got involved.

I like the idea of still focusing on fun, and splitting into the fewest divisions that allows that, fairly. Most people just want to shoot and have fun.
 
I'll chime in and say that the way it was set out at the first match, standard + open + trooper, is probably as complex as you want to make it or you're going to kill yourself with record keeping.

I like it as-is, personally. Irons = red dot = max 1.25 (magnified turned down to min for the entire match) on rifle only = standard. Any optics on shotguns, I'm a bit ambivalent as they aren't helping much, nobody's missing a 10yard target with a shotgun.

Rifles with multi optics including a magnifier = open.

Optics on pistols is another story as typically those are tricked out race guns and a big advantage over guys running stock Glocks, CZ's, or whatever. Open.

Trooper, DocM was talking about trying it out last weekend, did anyone else even attempt it?

All that makes sense to me. I know there are arguments to further break things down, but I just don't personally see the need with 40 guys competing.
 
I'm cool with turning my scope down and running in Standard! :) I had a hell of a lot of fun. I think the best way for me to place better would be to not make any mistakes (engage all targets) and shoot better with my pistol. LOL
 
easysauce said:
yup i wore the plates the whole damn day, carried all my crap too!
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I've worn armor for the whole match before but have not really done the trooper thing.

I'm trying to get some type of scabard set up on my pack so that Ican carry both long guns and all my gear in one easy package.
 
Cyanide Ride said:
I'd still hate to see there be too much focus on divisions.

Obviously you shouldn't be competing against someone with open guns or anything like that, but some sanity should be called for.

I've always felt that WRAS focuses on fun, camaraderie, sport and first and formost than anything else.

Atleast I've always tried to carry the relaxed and fun part by keeping things interesting when it's my turn to run the stage, heheheh...

Splitting up into too many divisions always attracts the more "interesting folk" lets call them :)

I really like the idea of the 5 round mag class, it'd give alot of people a chance to feel less intimidated and get more people out there.
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I agree, the WRAS shoots have always been fun, with a really nice laid back feeling of folks helping folks.

Having been down this road from very early 80's IPSC and then again with early 90's IDPA it starts out fun and as a group of folks wanting to have fun in a sport. Then the rules start to get changed, then divisions are put in place, I believe for the good of a few who want to move up their place in the standing believing that kit makes the persons standing.

I hope this does not happen at WRAS as the breaking the group into divisions will "possibly" enhance some shooters standings, but for fact it will separate the shooters further, which will deny some an opportunity to see what kit and how well (or not) it works for someone else.

If 1 is to believe that the very best gear on the market makes a persons ranking higher, they are sadly mistaken. I am living proof of that. I seriously doubt anyone else at WRAS has the amount of $$ invested in guns and gear or has higher end kit than I run. I am in a unique position as my kit is company owned and a write off, something that few other shooters enjoy the benefit of due to circumstance.
That being said my ranking in the stack is consistently in the lower 1/3rd of the group. Frankly I am fine with that as given my age and the condition of my body I am happy just to be able to "come out and play" still.

I guess my thoughts are do we want WRAS to start down the slippery slope of divisions and potentially make fun outing more stressful and political or do we want to have fun and camaraderie? This is something we all need to consider.

If we get WRAS to instigate divisions maybe we should also go further and get the geriatric division, and also a professional division so that some of the really experienced shooters are not always cleaning up on the novices?
In my 2 year association with the WRAS group there are 2 or 3 guys who always kick ass at the shoots, and good on them, BUT should they be segregated into an "expert" division? Personally I think not as what they offer allows the less proficient shooters a chance to learn by observation and improve their game skills.

Anyway that's my .02 YMMV
 
alberta tactical rifle said:
I agree, the WRAS shoots have always been fun, with a really nice laid back feeling of folks helping folks.

Having been down this road from very early 80's IPSC and then again with early 90's IDPA it starts out fun and as a group of folks wanting to have fun in a sport. Then the rules start to get changed, then divisions are put in place, I believe for the good of a few who want to move up their place in the standing believing that kit makes the persons standing.

I hope this does not happen at WRAS as the breaking the group into divisions will "possibly" enhance some shooters standings, but for fact it will separate the shooters further, which will deny some an opportunity to see what kit and how well (or not) it works for someone else.

If 1 is to believe that the very best gear on the market makes a persons ranking higher, they are sadly mistaken. I am living proof of that. I seriously doubt anyone else at WRAS has the amount of $$ invested in guns and gear or has higher end kit than I run. I am in a unique position as my kit is company owned and a write off, something that few other shooters enjoy the benefit of due to circumstance.
That being said my ranking in the stack is consistently in the lower 1/3rd of the group. Frankly I am fine with that as given my age and the condition of my body I am happy just to be able to "come out and play" still.

I guess my thoughts are do we want WRAS to start down the slippery slope of divisions and potentially make fun outing more stressful and political or do we want to have fun and camaraderie? This is something we all need to consider.

If we get WRAS to instigate divisions maybe we should also go further and get the geriatric division, and also a professional division so that some of the really experienced shooters are not always cleaning up on the novices?
In my 2 year association with the WRAS group there are 2 or 3 guys who always kick ass at the shoots, and good on them, BUT should they be segregated into an "expert" division? Personally I think not as what they offer allows the less proficient shooters a chance to learn by observation and improve their game skills.

Anyway that's my .02 YMMV
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That's a pretty good point too! It is cool to watch the guys that kick ass go through the stages and pick up pointers.
 
Very well said. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Maybe leaving it all as one division IS the best way to go. I'm okay with having my a$$ handed to me every match, as long as my percentage is creeping up. That shows me that I'm learning and improving. (And still having fun) :)
 
haha yeah sam... it wasnt too bad carrying everything, it all fit in a back pack, one gun per hand.

and WRAS 3 gun is the most fun I can have with my pants on... brought 2 new guys in and they also loved it, awesome camaraderie and FUN! which in the end is why I come out, and really I see the competitive aspect of it as a competition with my self to beat my own personal best.


HAHA geriatric division.... I like that
 
All in one division is good by me, I am just wary of some of the rules for the WRAS proposed divisions which is why I agree with the other fellas good ideas. Were the divisions to happen perhaps squading could be left to a semi random mix up so guys could see how guys in the other divisions do and also still see the pro's rock it.
 
@ Alberta Tactical Rifle

I don't think having divisions in scoring would really kill the fun and camaraderie... Unless you mean that we should divide the shooters up before hand in their class and make them shoot as divisions? I would have thought that divisions would just mean a change in the end results/scoring ie. 5 round mag guys not having their times weighted against 10 round per mag guys or the 2 or 3 pros being scored against each other even though they ran the stages with a mixed group. I would sincerely hope that if classes/divisions are implemented that we'd all still be mixed up in random groups and be able to interact freely and have fun.

I know there is an increase in complexity when more rules are put in place, but I don't think it's fair for a 5 round per mag rifle to shoot against the AR's with 10 round LAR mags or a production pistol/shotgun to compete against the race rigs I saw some using. I'm certainly not going to go out and drop a pile of money on 3 new race guns so a division for 5 round mags is really a good idea to me. I think it would actually broaden the interest in 3 gun because more people would bring out whatever 5 round per mag semi auto they have instead of wishing they had an AR. I don't take 3 gun as a serious competition myself, but I will say I'd like to be a serious participant. Improving myself and how I shoot is important to me (Lol... really important as I'm in the bottom 1/3 of the scores too, hahaha!), but having fun and enjoying the day as a whole is just as important!

I can see your point with IPSC and IDPA and I hope 3 gun stays more fun and relaxed than that, but I don't think it will as it's popularity increases... It's the nature of beast unfortunately..
 
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K, time weigh in here.

First of all, everybody is starting to get to bloody wrapped around the axle shaft here. We are talking about different division, yes. Just like in IPSC there is standard, production and open, same concept just will be called different names. So with that, if you shoot an AR with a 4x whatever w/ a red dot piggybacked, you will be in "open" and shoot only against others with the same set-up and so on.

We, I will make sure that the squads have a mixture of everybody in them, so that, everybody can learn what to and not to do during the time they are with us in WRAS.

We as the EXEC have tried to implement things this year to make the shooting season more enjoyable, challenging, exciting and a learning experience for one and all. So please bear with us as we try and work our way through this learning period. If you have suggestions please email us @ wras.3gun@gmail.com.

Have a great wknd.

Jarrit
VP
WRAS
 
on a side note to any 7.62 shooters,
http://www.wolverinesupplies.com/de...-L-Micro-Pistol-762x39-10-Round-Magazine.aspx

has 10 round lar pistol mags in 7.62 caliber, and you can get an adapter for most guns so they take the statnag mags.

I know wolverine has the cz one here http://www.wolverinesupplies.com/details/3824/BandT-AG-CZ-858-AR15-Magwell-Adapter.aspx for sure



and they carry the cz with the adapter pre installed. I mean in a perfect world canadian laws wouldnt screw sports shooters and we could all have 30 rounders, but this could be a way to enjoy your preferred gun without losing the competitive edge perhaps?

too bad there isnt a cz or ak pistol so we could just get those mags and do without the adaptor.
 
I thought about that as an option myself... But after watching all of the problems people had with LAR mags in their AR's last weekend I'm really turned off by this mod. I like my 858's just the way they are and don't want to mess with the reliability, lol! Almost 5000 rounds through the one I dressed up without a jam, failure to feed or any problem whatsoever... Now that I've said that I bet it falls apart next time I shoot it, hahaha!

I really like my 858 now that it's so easy for me to find NON surplus ammo for it too! The range safe non-steel core stuff made by MFS is a bit dirty, but it's super accurate and I haven't had a hard primer, crappy load or any issue with their ammo... and it's CHEAP!

*Edit: I do realize it's my fault I have 5 rounds in a mag, not 10, and it wouldn't bother me to just carry some ammo on stripper clips. I don't expect to ever be the fastest nor the best shooter out there and it's just fun stuff for me anyway!
 
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