Interested in buying Night Vision device

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Apollyon

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Hi all, I'm interested in buying my first night vision device and just wanted to gather some opinions.

1. Gen 2, 2+, 3? I've definitely ruled out Gen 1s. But the price jump between Gen 2 and Gen 3 is pretty drastic. A Gen 2+ is affordable, but is the upgrade to a Gen 3 worth it?

2. The goggles I'm interested in are the Alpha PVS-7 Gen 2+ and the NEWCON OPTIK - NV66-G2 - 2nd Gen. I'm wondering if anybody has had any experience with these?

3. Any thoughts on goggles vs monoculars? Ideally I'd love something that I can add magnification to, or use with a rifle scope to get the best of all worlds.

Also, I'm going to be wearing them over glasses most likely and I'm wondering what the best option would be regarding both monoculars and goggles.

Thanks
 
I've used the ANS PV 7 and they are good. I could easily drive in them, slowly as I had no depth perception.

The true bino goggles are better for depth perception. Even in Gen 1+ due to the fact you can adjust one lens to give your brain the idea it sees depth even on the older cathode tv screen screen that you are really viewing. Also the goggles are amazing in water.

I had no trouble using regular binoculars with the 2 tube NVGs, never tried a scope as I used the EoTech in NV mode.

The single mounted monocular is not bad but it was too weird for me with NV in one eye and normal vision in the other but most folk easily adapt.
They are crap for use in water IMO
 
A lot will depend on what you are planning on using them for.
I mostly use mine for leisure night viewing or stargazing.

I have a number of units in mono, bino, and scope, in Gen1 through Gen2-to-3-ish, in digital and tube, the most expensive unit is only $2k though.
I got some of them for good deals which is the only reason why I bought some of them. ;)
I haven't used either of the models you mentioned.

From the humble amount of information I can offer:

I would recommend actually looking through the unit if you are spending that much money. You will want to make sure you like not only the image quality but the ergonomics.

The bino digital goggle unit I have is a bit uncomfortable with my glasses on, so I usually take them off when I use it, and change the focus as required.

If you have glasses make sure the unit has a good adjustable diopter. On one unit I have to adjust the diopter all the way to one end to get it in focus for my eyes, even with glasses on.

If you have the funds, I wouldn't go below Gen2.
The top current Gen1+ (if you can believe the + means something) are not really bad, but they just don't compare to later generations. I have some decent power IR lights so those help significantly with the Gen1+ units, unless you are trying to stay hidden from other people with NV.

The "mono" binos are bad to try to move around with since they typically have RoF starting around 1 meter and a narrow FOV, so it is like walking through a tunnel where you only see what starts three feet in front of you.

From the units that I own to the limited ones I have been able to try (I live in the sticks), I prefer mono units as I can use my other open eye for some peripheral, even on dark nights.

I am split decisively on headmount mono and scope (NV on left, scope on right), versus just my NV scope.
With the headmount mono I can look around easier instead of waving the gun around to look through it. But with the NV scope I feel more on-target.

If you get a unit that includes the head mount, get a good helmet, as the weight will really cut into your scalp. 15-20 minutes are all I can take.
 
Hey thanks for all your input guys, I really appreciate it.

Well, I did a bit of googling and found an old US Army research document in human factors and night vision. It turns out that there wasn't that great a difference in performance and preference between bioculars and monoculars.

So based on everything you guys said, I think I'm going to pick up two monoculars (probably from Tactical Imports) and mount them together to make binocular goggles. The research paper showed that binocular is significantly better than the other two options.

One thing though is that I've never found a retailer where I can go to and actually try a night vision device. I'm a bit concerned about that. Most places I know only have cheap (hundreds of dollars) Gen 1 devices, and nobody has goggles.

I have my heart set on these.. http://www.tacticalimports.ca/alpha-ac1228-gen-2-monocular-p-146.html They have the accessories I'm interested in too, like rifle mounts, magnification, head mounting etc, but no coupling with a laser rangefinder yet. Its also Gen 2, so I'm totally skipping Gen 1.

But one of my big concerns is that its mass is 340 g, so double that and I am looking at having something pretty heavy on my head and I'm not planning on wearing a helmet.

deegee, what is the weight that you are wearing on your head when you mentioned that it really starts digging into your scalp?
 
Apollyon said:
...

Well, I did a bit of googling and found an old US Army research document in human factors and night vision. It turns out that there wasn't that great a difference in performance and preference between bioculars and monoculars.

...

But one of my big concerns is that its mass is 340 g, so double that and I am looking at having something pretty heavy on my head and I'm not planning on wearing a helmet.

deegee, what is the weight that you are wearing on your head when you mentioned that it really starts digging into your scalp?
Click to expand...

Sorry for the late reply.

Many of the "binoculars" on the market are just a single tube/ccd that just "Y"'s out to the two eyepieces. Hence the "not much difference" from a monocular. My one goggle mono-binocular is like that, sort of like looking at a single mini tv screen placed an inch in front of your eyes, and really difficult to walk around with since I have zero peripheral vision with it and no depth-of-field.
Proper "dual tube" stereo binoculars are available but are costly since it is basically 2x the hardware.

I have been eyeing the AC1228 myself and considering on picking one up to play with.

If you go with two monoculars, at least you can still use one as a regular hand-held or rifle-mount monocular. but I would tend to think that two of them on a head gear kit would be almost impossible to wear.

Also regarding rifle mount, I didn't see anything in the specs regarding calibre recoil, so if you are planning on using it on a higher calibre rifle I would check into this before putting out the cash.

The head mount monocular that I have weighs 13.4 oz including the IR light, but not including the weight of the head gear itself or the batteries.
So 340 grams is ~12 oz, x2 = 24 oz, almost twice the weight of my monocular, so expect some head pain unless you have a really strong scalp or high threshold of pain. With mine, after 20+ minutes I am in very uncomfortable pain. It is also quite difficult to turn your head as the forward mass really hurts and strains. Most of the pain is from the straps cutting into your skin, so I'm not even sure how much a helmet would help, and the straps have to be quite tight so it is like having your head in a vise.
FYI the head mount kit I am using has a full circumference padded band, X straps over the head, and chin strap/cup, so it is a fairly decent kit. I am going to try an airsoft helmet to see how that works with it.
 
[youtube]ikqXNtXIZ0w[/youtube]

I cant imagine any time I would use a binocular unit. Your depth perception gets so limited anyway, and if its dark enough to use the scope, its dark enough that the image through your other eye won't be distracting.

I owned a few gen 1 units, which were a waste of time.

My "2+" ATN tube is the best for the price I've had experience with.

In my mind, by the time you start looking at gen 3 NVDs you'd be better off to buy a thermal unit and get some real use out of it.
 
Ouch... I hope I can handle the head pain....

Well, today I pulled the trigger figuratively. I ordered an Alpha Optics Gen 2+ NVM14, but just one of them. I also ordered the head mount, so I'll be walking around with just the monocular. Depending on how well things work, I might buy the mount and a second NVM14 for true binocular night vision.

I totally forgot about recoil, I hadn't considered that. I'll have to do some research to see if the NVM14 can handle it. I'm only shooting 5.56 55gr on my XCR at the moment, but I might be going up to 7.62 NATO.

Hey TV-Press Pass, was that you in the Youtube video? That was really well made and helps out a lot. I think that if I do get into night vision shooting I'd have to put in a lot of effort and bucks to make it work properly. My main long distance optic now is a Leupold VX-R in 3-9x40, and my CQB optic is a Lucid HD7 which may or may not be night vision compatible.

Well, I'll know in a couple of days how well the Alpha Optics NVM 14 works and whether or not it is going to crush my head. Wish me luck.
 
TV-PressPass said:
I cant imagine any time I would use a binocular unit.

...

In my mind, by the time you start looking at gen 3 NVDs you'd be better off to buy a thermal unit and get some real use out of it.
Click to expand...

IMHO the binocular NV is good for general surveillance and nighttime viewing and stargazing, not so good for ops or where you are moving.
One of my monocular units is classified as Gen3 (I got it used for 1/3 price) and it is the one I go to for general surveillance, but only because it is the top quality of what I have for units. I would love to have a Gen3 true binocular dual-tube.

I disagree on the Thermal. Gen3 starts at ~$3400, Thermal starts at ~$11,200. You can buy a lot of Gen3 gear for $11k+. Plus the viewed image between the two is a lot different. If I were rich I would have both. :)

eg:
Gen3: h ttp://www.tacticalimports.ca/night-vision-monoculars-c-36_38.html
Therm: h ttp://www.tacticalimports.ca/thermal-imaging-c-36_47.html


Apollyon said:
Ouch... I hope I can handle the head pain....

Well, today I pulled the trigger figuratively. ...

I totally forgot about recoil ...
Click to expand...

You may or may not be as bothered by the head gear as I am. The big issue I found was that the monocular sits so far forward that it cantilevers a lot of downward force on the front strap, so you have to tighten the straps tight or it slides on your head.

Let us know what you think of the NV.
Pics if possible. ;)

Recoil is a dual issue with NV.
- You must make sure you are not using a calibre that exceeds the device's design limits (or you'll just shake it apart in a few rounds). With the better NV units you should be able to shoot at least .223.
- Plus most NV have a very short eye-relief (as little as 10mm, 25mm on the NVM14 which is quite good), so a rifle with more recoil or muzzle lift will cause the NV to kiss your eye socket. :)
 
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I was conscious of recoil and eye relief issues with mine (and yes, thats me in the video!) but off of .223 it wasnt a serious issue.

Depending on what you run it on, you might look into a good flash hider as well. I definitely noticed less obstruction after firing with my surefire on there. Make sure anything weapon mounted doesn't have an IR source behind you, because you'll start to get parts of the gun reflecting IR light back, which can be distracting.

But deegee, I have to disagree when it comes to thermal being 11K. Thats just not true. These guys ship to Canada, its FLIR brand (not random thermal companys) and they're lowest unit is $1,999.

http://www.optimumstores.ca/scout
 
TV-PressPass said:
But deegee, I have to disagree when it comes to thermal being 11K. Thats just not true. These guys ship to Canada, its FLIR brand (not random thermal companys) and they're lowest unit is $1,999
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While I do take your comment, I would just like to add:

The low end digital thermal units are not in the same league as the expensive thermal imagers.
It's like comparing Gen1 vs Gen3 Night Vision.

The low end thermal units are typically only a minimal 240x180 resolution, so a person standing 50+ meters away is usually not even discernable in the image.
The typical thermal imagers for the $11k+ price are upwards of 800x600+ resolution, have higher sensitivity and better thermal response, etc.
It's like comparing Gen1 vs Gen3 Night Vision.

That being said, like NV, if a "Gen1 comparative" quality of thermal fits your needs then go ahead. I will agree that the price is more palatable. But like Gen1 vs Gen3 in NV, don't expect anywhere near the same quality image from a $2k thermal as you will get with an $11k thermal. :)
 
Never had an issue with the weight of quality NVG. Oh and the muzzle flash/bright lighting ...they auto dim or the good ones do, so not an issue.

About the laser coupling thing, I used a firearm mounted laser sight and NVG for years with no issue. The laser sight on the gun can be seen on your selected target for at least a mile away with any NVG.
 
Well, my order for the NVM14 fell through, it turns out that the manufacturer has to wait on a shipment of tubes to come in.

Now I'm really tempted to buy a Gen 1 pair of monoculars, the Night Owl Tactical G1 series. They are true binocular, fairly light and include the head gear for around $900. I'm tempted because I know I can get them tomorrow.

The NVM 14 with head gear will be around $2500 for the monocular, and if I were to turn them into binoculars it would be double that. Gen 1 is useable I think, but I haven't looked through any Gen 2+ yet, so I can't compare.

This is a toughie.
 
Apollyon said:
Well, my order for the NVM14 fell through ...
Click to expand...

The Tactical Imports web site shows that they have 10 Alpha NVM14 units in stock. ?

Apollyon said:
Now I'm really tempted to buy a Gen 1 pair of monoculars ...
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If you have the money burning a hole in your wallet...
But remember that is ~$1000 that could go towards some better Gen2 gear.
Personally, I would just get which ever Gen2 monocular that I could find, or just wait.

It would be nice if there was a good web site where there were high quality photos of many of the NV units for comparison. I always found this frustrating as you don't know what you are going to get if you can't go and actually handle the unit.
 
I thought they were in stock too, but I guess not. I don't know what happened, but Alpha Optics has to wait for a batch of new tubes before building the order :( Oh well, I will just wait.

I suspect that the Night Owl unit will feel very toy like. I tried out Bushnell NV binoculars today, and they worked, but the picture was blurry and it felt very toy like and cheap, but it was only $550.

Well now, my big question is, for $1000 more, would it be worth going to Gen 3 ?
 
I've used the Rigel Optics version of Night Owl. They were very good for gen 1 +. Usually you get a gen 1 and a gen 1+ tube. They were good enough to run an atv, boat. Waterproof to 3 ft.

And my wife shot my AR on FA @ night with a laser sight and had no issues with target @ 50 yds. She's Canadian and never shot anything before.

Before I get any hate mail, we were at our place in the States were FA is ok.
 
skypilot said:
I've used the Rigel Optics version of Night Owl.
Click to expand...

Were they fairly light and comfortable to wear on the head? And could you walk around with them ok? I tried Bushnell binoculars today and I can't imagine walking around with them as the FOV seemed pretty narrow.
 
Apollyon said:
Were they fairly light and comfortable to wear on the head? And could you walk around with them ok? I tried Bushnell binoculars today and I can't imagine walking around with them as the FOV seemed pretty narrow.
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Yes, they were ok, maybe a pound on your head. Rigel's were made well as I dropped them fom about 5 ft onto a concrete slab, they were undamaged.

You are looking at 2 tv screens basically, so you have to adjust each tube to give the perception of depth for close up stuff like walking in the bush and trying to swipe vines and limbs out of your way.

The downside is they have a definite usage time in hours used. After a year or two of heavy use they get grainy and usually a tube becomes less usable until they are no longer usable.

I had a pair of DEA issued ANPVS and they were good, auto dim, quality built, Milspec but no depth perception.

NVAG 6 are good enough to aviate in but you still only have about 40 or 50 degree FOV and you have a battery pack so neck strain is problematic.

So really it depends on what your need or use is going to be and the price you are willing to pay.

Get the highest resolution, easiest battery type, completely passive and the closest focus to infinity you can afford.
 
The low end digital thermal units are not in the same league as the expensive thermal imagers.
It's like comparing Gen1 vs Gen3 Night Vision.

The low end thermal units are typically only a minimal 240x180 resolution, so a person standing 50+ meters away is usually not even discernable in the image.
The typical thermal imagers for the $11k+ price are upwards of 800x600+ resolution, have higher sensitivity and better thermal response, etc.
It's like comparing Gen1 vs Gen3 Night Vision.

That being said, like NV, if a "Gen1 comparative" quality of thermal fits your needs then go ahead. I will agree that the price is more palatable. But like Gen1 vs Gen3 in NV, don't expect anywhere near the same quality image from a $2k thermal as you will get with an $11k thermal.
Click to expand...


I don't buy the gen 1 vs gen 3. Thermals aren't NVDs, they work different.

You're right, the resolution of a detector makes a difference, both for money spent and quality of image. But in my mind Gen 1 Night vision is damn near unusable, while I would never say entry level thermals are unusable.

The PS32 is the same small monocular, at $3000, with a 320X240 detector. The manufacturer says that will detect a man sized heat signature at 500 yards. Considering my gen 1 NV is really only 25 yards effective, and my Gen 2 feels barely 200 yards effective, I still see a real value in thermal kit.

I've never seen an 800X600 sensor like you describe, but I've looked through a less than 10K unit with a 640X480 setup. Its big, but it wasn't a game changer for me.
 
We will have to agree to disagree. :)

My Gen1 vs Gen3 comment was regarding comparison in resolution and recognition, it was not to say that the technologies were the same.
You will have to spend $11k in Thermal to get similar resolution (and therefore recognition) to $3k NV.

The manufacturer's claim will be detection, not recognition, two totally different things.
And the specs manufacturer's quote are always under perfect ideal conditions, which are rarely possible in the real world. So expect lower numbers in real usage.

500 yards = 457 meters = ~1/3 mile or ~1/2 km.
A 320x240 detector at that distance results in a "human sized" PoT (pixels on target) of ~3 pixels. That is detection, not recognition. On a 320x240 detector 2-3 pixels is only 1/100th of the height of the detector.
On that small of a detector, you will not be able to determine what the object is at 500 meters, it will be just a tiny dot on the screen. If it doesn't move, you won't even know whether it is background noise.
And the low end models like the PS32 don't have good optic zoom lenses to enable recognition at that far distance (2x digital zoom is not optic zoom).

As an example, assuming perfect viewing conditions, a 38 micron pitch detector with 19mm lens has a human target recognition of approximately 40 meters. A 35mm lens has a human target recognition of about 70 meters. *
I can do that with Gen1 NV.

Since this thread is about night vision and not thermal (imho two different but partially overlapping technologies):
I realize that the Thermal technology produces a different image than NV, plus it does have its uses including limited daytime use, and it would be fun to own both, but for the vast majority of people and their uses a Gen3 NV at $3000 will typically give superior night vision results and better resolution and recognition than a $3000 Thermal. Even a $2000 SuperVision with 800x600 sensor and HD display will give significantly greater resolution and recognition than a PS32 (the SV's limitation is it's active). Also note: A Gen3 NV is higher quality than a SuperVision with its 800x600 detector.

For someone looking for the best quality for the money, Gen3 is the current top. While I do agree with your statement that there is value in thermal, because it does display a different image and has its uses, it can't compare for the same dollar.

If I seem to come off as an elitist, it is because I have learned that you usually get what you pay for. :)

* h ttp://www.optimumenergy.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/how-far-can-you-see-with-a-thermal-imager.pdf


TV-PressPass said:
I don't buy the gen 1 vs gen 3. Thermals aren't NVDs, they work different.

You're right, the resolution of a detector makes a difference, both for money spent and quality of image. But in my mind Gen 1 Night vision is damn near unusable, while I would never say entry level thermals are unusable.

The PS32 is the same small monocular, at $3000, with a 320X240 detector. The manufacturer says that will detect a man sized heat signature at 500 yards. Considering my gen 1 NV is really only 25 yards effective, and my Gen 2 feels barely 200 yards effective, I still see a real value in thermal kit.

I've never seen an 800X600 sensor like you describe, but I've looked through a less than 10K unit with a 640X480 setup. Its big, but it wasn't a game changer for me.
Click to expand...
 
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