More complicated now to choose a 9 mm
- Thread starter CristianM
- Start date
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- Lower Mainland BC
buy one SIG P226DAK and forget about others...because you'll buy one anyway !
this is the one you want and you know it already...LOL
this is the one you want and you know it already...LOL
The basic Glock design is much older...and the minor changes between gen 3 and gen 4 still ####ed it up.
Mature technology is fine and all...Personally I like empirical proof of function in the exact model of gun I intend to shoot.
Well.. the pros say that DA/SA shouldn't really matter since your first shot is supposed to break right as you complete a press-out, whether you're shooting SA/striker or DA/SA.
Other options might be a Steyr M9A1 or Ruger SR9. Of course you are missing out on both the 1911 and BHP.
I personally wouldn't be so quick to write off Glocks, though. I don't own one, but once upon a time I hated them too. Curiosity got the better of me and I rented one. While I don't really have a need for another 9mm platform, the simplicity (God forbid I say elegance!) of them can grow on you really really quickly.
Other options might be a Steyr M9A1 or Ruger SR9. Of course you are missing out on both the 1911 and BHP.
I personally wouldn't be so quick to write off Glocks, though. I don't own one, but once upon a time I hated them too. Curiosity got the better of me and I rented one. While I don't really have a need for another 9mm platform, the simplicity (God forbid I say elegance!) of them can grow on you really really quickly.
Can't you guys read? Stop it with norc 1911 / CZ 75 / Beretta 92 suggestion; the OP is obviously looking for a DA pistol and don't want no DA/SA pistol as stated in post #1 
Of the choice you submitted: I would have to say (Even if you dislike them) that the GLOCK imo is "the" striker fired pistol that defined the standard for the others to compare to.
The M&P while similar is imo a bit inferior; it used to have the advantage of exchangeable backstraps but not anymore with Gen4. I found the trigger to be mushier too. My experience with XD pistol is not very good. The one I checked was rattling like [insert a "your mom" joke here] and I generally dislike the "overloaded" look of the slide... (Sorry XD users). Some pistols even includes engraving such as "Please read the user manual blah blah blah..." retarded really but that's another subject...
I was very impressed with the light LEM on a P30L, I like the way it works. You gotta like H&K funky controls but I'm sure you can get used to it; and it's actually quite practical really!
As much as I like SIG pistols and I think they're the golden standard when it comes to DA/SA trigger mechanism, SIG DAK is not up to par with other DA systems so I'd pass on this one.
In your choices; I would suggest you look at the H&K P30L and M&P. You should do yourself a favor and handle a G17 Gen4. Just like when you choose a wife, sure looks counts, but what really matters is what she can do (And how it fit in your hands)
Cheers,
Of the choice you submitted: I would have to say (Even if you dislike them) that the GLOCK imo is "the" striker fired pistol that defined the standard for the others to compare to.
The M&P while similar is imo a bit inferior; it used to have the advantage of exchangeable backstraps but not anymore with Gen4. I found the trigger to be mushier too. My experience with XD pistol is not very good. The one I checked was rattling like [insert a "your mom" joke here] and I generally dislike the "overloaded" look of the slide... (Sorry XD users). Some pistols even includes engraving such as "Please read the user manual blah blah blah..." retarded really but that's another subject...
I was very impressed with the light LEM on a P30L, I like the way it works. You gotta like H&K funky controls but I'm sure you can get used to it; and it's actually quite practical really!
As much as I like SIG pistols and I think they're the golden standard when it comes to DA/SA trigger mechanism, SIG DAK is not up to par with other DA systems so I'd pass on this one.
In your choices; I would suggest you look at the H&K P30L and M&P. You should do yourself a favor and handle a G17 Gen4. Just like when you choose a wife, sure looks counts, but what really matters is what she can do
(And how it fit in your hands)Cheers,
Imteresting. Could you, please, elaborate on this or give some web link?
pisces-guy
CGN frequent flyer
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- West Kelowna, B.C.
A lot to be said about the Ruger SR9 with some polishing and the Galloway Precision
polished stainless parts and springs included, as well as the Ghost Rocket trigger connector. The parts and polishing make a good pistol into a great one, and the gun and parts total up to well under $600.
polished stainless parts and springs included, as well as the Ghost Rocket trigger connector. The parts and polishing make a good pistol into a great one, and the gun and parts total up to well under $600.
That depends entirely on the pro...Todd Green thinks TDA is a fine system. The majority of trainers, in my experience, will tell you otherwise; two diffent trigger pulls is harder to manage than one.
A given number of hours of practise will generally result in a greater skill level on a pistol with a single trigger pull than on one with multiple trigger pulls...I have never seen that disputed by any serious trainer, ever.
ChristianM, if you want to compete in the IPSC Production class or IDPA SSP class then you either need to get a striker fired gun or you have no choice but to get a DA/SA gun. The rules for the production and stock classes call for a DA first shot. If you insist on a striker or SA only gun then you limit your options. You also toss out a heap of winning designs. For example the CZ Shadow for IPSC Production. A gun which puts lots of smiles on lots of owners' faces.
I would also suggest that you're fretting needlessly over the whole DA/SA trigger difference. It's simply not that big a deal to learn to shoot that first DA shot from the draw. The lessons and skill you learn on trigger control to make a good and accurate first DA shot are the same lessons and skill you need to shoot well in the subsequent SA shots. Lots of us shoot DA/SA guns and hit our Alpha or -0 zones with the first shots at least half the time. It just takes some practice.
And if you "massage" the gun's action to bring the DA trigger pull effort down closer to the 5 lb minimum you'll find that it's even easier to get good first shots.
On the other hand if you opt for a SA hammer gun then you automatically move yourself up into the IPSC Standard class or IDPA ESP. In IDPA it's not that big a deal. But for IPSC you automatically end up shooting against folks that have snazzy guns set up with really trick triggers and gaping wide mag well "funnels". It's a whole different and more expensive game from the Production class.
The CZ Shadow does not come in SA only. CZ does make an SA 75 though. It's just not the Shadow model. But keep in mind the class you wish to shoot in for competition.
If you've shot some handguns already I'd suggest that the only reason you're dead set against the DA/SA style is that you've simply avoided shooting any of the guns in DA mode. But give yourself a bit of practice and you'll soon realize that it's simply not that big a deal.
Oh, it also helps if you enjoy shooting revolvers. I do and I've shot mine in Speed Steel and IDPA practices. There's no time to #### and shoot in such events so one must get good with DA triggers. Much of that practice and learned skill will obviously bleed over to being able to shoot a DA/SA gun well for the first DA shot.
So I'd say that instead of going out of your way to avoid the DA/SA thing that you consider what the guns are like to shoot for the OTHER 95% of the stage and stop panicing over that first 5% for the DA shot. If it turns out that you like the feel of the striker fired triggers then fine. I tried a bunch of them and found that they didn't do it for me. I'm a hammer fired trigger sort of guy. If it turns out that you are too then suck it up and practice with the DA first shot frequently and it'll soon become a non issue. Until you get a holster a great drill is to SAFELY lower the hammer on such guns then go to a low ready position. Bring the gun up and out and learn to build up the pressure on the trigger while obtaining your sighting picture. With some practice you'll find that the trigger will be back to the break point at the same time you have your sight picture established and the shot can hit on target. Then do a second SA shot to finish the drill. Lower the gun, de-#### and repeat. Soon the DA first shot will become something you don't even thing about.
I would also suggest that you're fretting needlessly over the whole DA/SA trigger difference. It's simply not that big a deal to learn to shoot that first DA shot from the draw. The lessons and skill you learn on trigger control to make a good and accurate first DA shot are the same lessons and skill you need to shoot well in the subsequent SA shots. Lots of us shoot DA/SA guns and hit our Alpha or -0 zones with the first shots at least half the time. It just takes some practice.
And if you "massage" the gun's action to bring the DA trigger pull effort down closer to the 5 lb minimum you'll find that it's even easier to get good first shots.
On the other hand if you opt for a SA hammer gun then you automatically move yourself up into the IPSC Standard class or IDPA ESP. In IDPA it's not that big a deal. But for IPSC you automatically end up shooting against folks that have snazzy guns set up with really trick triggers and gaping wide mag well "funnels". It's a whole different and more expensive game from the Production class.
The CZ Shadow does not come in SA only. CZ does make an SA 75 though. It's just not the Shadow model. But keep in mind the class you wish to shoot in for competition.
If you've shot some handguns already I'd suggest that the only reason you're dead set against the DA/SA style is that you've simply avoided shooting any of the guns in DA mode. But give yourself a bit of practice and you'll soon realize that it's simply not that big a deal.
Oh, it also helps if you enjoy shooting revolvers. I do and I've shot mine in Speed Steel and IDPA practices. There's no time to #### and shoot in such events so one must get good with DA triggers. Much of that practice and learned skill will obviously bleed over to being able to shoot a DA/SA gun well for the first DA shot.
So I'd say that instead of going out of your way to avoid the DA/SA thing that you consider what the guns are like to shoot for the OTHER 95% of the stage and stop panicing over that first 5% for the DA shot. If it turns out that you like the feel of the striker fired triggers then fine. I tried a bunch of them and found that they didn't do it for me. I'm a hammer fired trigger sort of guy. If it turns out that you are too then suck it up and practice with the DA first shot frequently and it'll soon become a non issue. Until you get a holster a great drill is to SAFELY lower the hammer on such guns then go to a low ready position. Bring the gun up and out and learn to build up the pressure on the trigger while obtaining your sighting picture. With some practice you'll find that the trigger will be back to the break point at the same time you have your sight picture established and the shot can hit on target. Then do a second SA shot to finish the drill. Lower the gun, de-#### and repeat. Soon the DA first shot will become something you don't even thing about.
I'd be interested in this reference too. It sure isn't my experience that this is the case. If it occurs then it's because I wasn't pulling the trigger correctly or my hand is not placed correctly on the grips.
Excellent presentation!
Thanks a lot.I already did the holster course with my DA/SA Beretta 96A1. You are right, up to then I had avoided firing it in DA.
The fact is that I want a 9 mm anyway. So, why not explore other types of action besides DA/SA and SA (I have a 1911 Kimber as well). And if this 9 mm is going to help me with IDPA / IPSC, even better.
To avoid a confusion please: From IDPA / IPSC regulations point of of view, a DA/SA or a striker are the same? Would both place the shooter in the same category?
Thanks
Can't find a link right now, but I've seen ToddG advise the strategy several times. I also did some pressout-style drills when I did a handgun course with Shadowforce in Calgary.
[youtube]UCXmZD-Rym4[/youtube]
Could you explain how that changes the weight and length of the trigger pull, and the shorter reset position of the trigger as the pistol transitions from DA to SA? I don't get it. Oh yeah, and I do know about press out, shot release, etc.
It's possibly worth noting that Todd is just about the only big name trainer that takes that position and he readily acknowledges that it takes longer to train to use that trigger setup...i.e. it is more difficult to shoot a TDA well than a gun with a single trigger pull.
And his preference is for an LEM trigger with a longer pull on the first shot...but not a heavier pull. That trigger is well suited to his method of prepping the trigger on the press-out.
The FIRST shot in either IPSC Production or IDPA SSP has to be a double action sort of trigger pull. Yes, you're correct in thinking that the rules consider a striker fired gun to be a DA trigger. And for both groups the guns must start hammer down or be a striker fired gun where the striker is pulled back and "cocked" as part of the trigger pull
IPSC requires that the FIRST trigger pull require a minimum 5lb break. IDPA has no minimum pull requirement but it does require starting in SSP from a "hammer down" condition. After that it's all free and dependent on how far you can tune things within the respective rules.
But with a striker fired gun this means that the first trigger pull is the same as all the subsequent pulls. Namely a 5lb 4'ish oz or heavier pull. The 4 oz additional being a wise amount to ensure compliance within the rules.
Now I've shot a buddy's Glock which had been well tuned to just meet the IPSC rules. And I have to admit that it was ALMOST enough to convert me....
But my own Shadow, pre"b" 75 and Beretta have that much nicer a trigger pull once I get the first shot out of the way.Now I don't happen to enjoy striker fired guns all that much. I can shoot them OK but I'm simply not a fan of how the triggers feel. But many do and shoot them very well. The whole point of my tirade in this and my other thread was that you should not harbour an unrealistic concern over the DA first shot if it means you will pass up on a type of gun that you prefer to the striker guns. Instead try out some various striker and hammer guns and based on how you will shoot them 95% or better of the time pick one or the other.
If by chance you prefer the feel of a hammer gun then simply practice and train to deal with the DA first shot for competition. It's simply not that bad once you do the drill of decock, holster, draw, fire two, decock, holster, draw, fire two, etc, etc a couple of hundred times. Pretty soon you won't even think about the DA shot in your concentration needed for lining up the sights. Start slow, learn to do it smoothly and let the speed come with time and repetition.
Consider this too. By going with a striker gun you do not avoid the DA first shot stigma. You simply chose an option where EVERY shot is a DA shot.
Some will say that this brings the advantage of consistency. I say I'd rather only have to do a DA shot ONCE then have a nice tight break and reset.
But as the old saying goes YMMV. Just don't leap one way only to find that you cut your nose off to spite your face.
I think you can spare us all the needless cynicism.
I'm just pointing out that if you follow the way some of the professionals do it, your first shot should be breaking at full extension whether you're shooting DA or SA/striker. All you should be contending with is the heavier pull.
It was just food for thought, sheesh.
Clobbersauras
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Waaay out west.
I'm just wondering what specifically doesn't fit you well?
I only ask because you may be missing out on a viable option because you aren't considering that all those shortcomings can be addressed fairy easily.
Too Blocky?
You can alter the grip to suit you.
Points high?
Install a Grip Force Adapter.
Don't like the sights?
There are literally hundreds of options.
BC Rider makes good points but I don't agree that for most people a DA/SA trigger is not a big deal to manage. As I posted before I've owned both systems and really worked for over a year trying to learn the DA/SA trigger on my HK P2000. I ended up a little frustrated because I wasn't progressing like I felt I should. Given my level of proficiency with a pistol (I consider myself to be an intermediate shooter, and my F.A.S.T Drill times support that
), and the amount I am able to train given my work/life constraints, I feel that I will be much better served with a consistent trigger with an audible and tactile reset.IMO, to get to the advanced level with a DA/SA trigger requires at least ten thousands rounds per year and a whole hell of a lot of dry fire. For most of us range posers/dads/husbands, it's just not possible. I don't have time or money to fight a system that requires MORE work to learn.
