So 150 g ttsx or 180 partitions for moose

[captonion]

From his statement

I can say certainly wasn't the case before with lead bullets for me, even with excellent shot placement). So, what's not to like?

He has ZERO experience using partitions or a real poor shot

I'm lookin for numbers..Like 20 with conventional vs 20 with TTSX, would be a good comparison, but 30 with conventional vs 3 with TTSX, isn't much to compare...Just trying to get an idea of Barnes_270's experience, because mine is quite different...

 

[Barnes_270]

My sample size is limited, certainly not like someone like John B, and no, I've never used the Nosler Partition, just the general cup & core stuff before I started handloading. I am not making any judgments on the NP. I have said, repeatedly, that the NP is a fine bullet, and if I was interested in a lead bullet, the NP would be a good choice. So, I'm not sure what the issue is. I just don't want to eat lead. If you don't mind, whatever, it's a free world. You're free to do as you please. I base my choice on (a) the research done to date (b) and my knowledge of the toxic properties of lead. I have not personally noticed any detrimental effects of using the TSX/TTSX on my style of hunting, and it so happens that all three deer I've shot so far using copper have been bang/flops, with very, very minimal meat damage even with a boiler room shot at close quarters. Yes, that's a small sample size (I started handloading only three seasons ago) but others report similar results. Aside from the lead issues, I think the lack of bloodshot / pulverized meat to be a benefit of using monolithics as well. Your mileage may vary.

 

[captonion]

I see....Your choice is more about not eating lead than performace...Fair enough..

You did state you had better kills with the TSX/TTSX on the three you have taken...How many have you taken with cup & core?

 

[Gatehouse]

Partitions are expensive to make. They are usually the same price or more as Barnes bullets. I used partitions extensively for years and they almost always worked. I had a weird experience with them when they got stopped by the spine of a big bear at close range. Broke the spine, but I think a TSX would have broke the spine and penetrated. Otherwise I was mostly pleased with their performance. They chew up more meat than all copper bullets, though.

I've had more bang flops from TSX bullets than Partitions too.

 

[3macs1]

My sample size is limited, certainly not like someone like John B, and no, I've never used the Nosler Partition, just the general cup & core stuff before I started handloading. I am not making any judgments on the NP. I have said, repeatedly, that the NP is a fine bullet, and if I was interested in a lead bullet, the NP would be a good choice. So, I'm not sure what the issue is. I just don't want to eat lead. If you don't mind, whatever, it's a free world. You're free to do as you please. I base my choice on (a) the research done to date (b) and my knowledge of the toxic properties of lead. I have not personally noticed any detrimental effects of using the TSX/TTSX on my style of hunting, and it so happens that all three deer I've shot so far using copper have been bang/flops, with very, very minimal meat damage even with a boiler room shot at close quarters. Yes, that's a small sample size (I started handloading only three seasons ago) but others report similar results. Aside from the lead issues, I think the lack of bloodshot / pulverized meat to be a benefit of using monolithics as well. Your mileage may vary.

Your honesty says a lot and now I fully understand where you are coming from. One thing I can assure you is if you had of tried partitions over the years you also would have seen wonderful results but regardless dead is dead.
You don't want any lead in your meat, I am not concerned about it since I have had both blood and hair analysis performed at least three times in my career ( last one 2005) due to the position I held with the main focus being other heavy metals but lead being one element that was also tested.
This was also at a time I was eating lots of wild game, shooting/ reloading at least 10,000 rounds a year mainly shotgun but never exceeded more than 30% of the range on the allowable lead scale.Wish I could say the same on uranium, titanium,etc
The main reason I use the Partition is because it is a bullet designed for hunting and proven over many many years. It has never let me down. The monolithics bullets to me are the result of an anti-hunting movement to outlaw lead bullets. The monolithics were NOT designed to be a better hunting bullet but as a quick response to anti's and the banning of lead in other countries. Even if they someday prove to be better than my old partitions I will NOT support that movement by using any monolithics until required to do so by law and at my age those odds are slim. Enjoyed the debate
All the best

 

[captonion]

I've had more bang flops from TSX bullets than Partitions too.

I've shot ALOT of deer,and have had bang/flops, but not a high percentage...I'd say about 30%..Most every one went a short ways before callin it a day..Lots of different calibers, and bullets including TSX(one failure)..I just found blood trails left by the TSX/TTSX to be dismal..
As of lately I have been shooting Scirroco's, and Partitions..Love the blood trail, and the internal damage the Scirroco's inflict..I just don't understand why I didn't get the devastating effects with TSX/TTSX that everyone else attests to...

I did have good results with 150gr Starfires in 30-30 though..Good blood trail as well as good expansion...I've loaded enough to last me two life times..

 

[marty06]

I have some experience with both the ttsx and the nosler partition. I shoot a 30-06 with 150 grain ttsx at 2975 fps, my brother shoots the 7mm rem mag with 150 grain partitions
at 3200 fps. I have shot 8 mature whitetail bucks and 2 moose with the tsx/ttsx all one shot kills furthest whitetail went abot 60 yards and 2 were bang flops. Out of the last 6 deer my brother shot 2 were bang flops, and the furthest went about 60 yards.

I also load for a native buddy of mine, he has a 7mm WBY and a .243 he shoots a lot more animals then both of us. I load 150 grain ttsx for the 7mm ( moose elk gun) and 85 grain tsx for the 243 (deer gun) he has had great sucess with these loads. he shot a cow elk at just over 200 yards with the .243 the 85 grain bullet broke the shoulder on the way in and on the way out he said the elk stagged for a few steps and fell over.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[Barnes_270]

I see....Your choice is more about not eating lead than performace...Fair enough..

You did state you had better kills with the TSX/TTSX on the three you have taken...How many have you taken with cup & core?

That sample size is pretty limited too, because I had a very long period in university when I (effectively) didn't hunt large game for about 12 years (yes, I was in university for a long, long time). So, that's also a sample of three: one moose (with a 30-30, probably 170gr bullets, certainly cup & core), and two deer using my 270 shooting 140gr Winchester Silvertips (the cup & core "silvertip", not the older bullet that had the same name). The moose was spined by my dad before I was called in as backup (his magazine fell from the gun at the first shot and was temporarily lost in the slash pile he shot from). That moose was running already before the first shot, so not a great comparison (since it was pumped up with adrenaline) but it took three shots in the lungs from that 30-30 before it stopped getting up and pawing forward on its front legs. The second kill was a blacktail, and I took it with a full frontal presentation with a shot to the throat at the base of the neck. That one was a bang/flop. The second deer was a larger blacktail a few years back before I started handloading. It was a perfect broadside shot to the boiler room, just perfect. Autopsy would confirm it was double-lunged, and that the bullet base/cup exited through the offside ribs. Even so it walked a good 40 yards before falling down and expiring slowly. I put a second round into the neck (spine) to finish it off at point blank range. It was that last one that made me wonder about the bullet performance, since the shot was perfect. There was also a lot of fragmentation with that one, with bloodshot meat and even nicking of the gut bag, despite the entry and exit wounds being lined up perfectly in the front of the ribcage.

The TSX/TTSX kills were as follows (all blacktails): first deer was a full frontal presentation again, and because of the range I held for the lung on one side, high. Bullet broke the front shoulder blade, shredded a lung, went over the gut bag by some miracle, and lodged in the rear hip socket. That's the one in my avatar. This was a commercially loaded 130gr TSX (Federal). Lost one petal in the process. All I saw in the scope was hooves after pulling the trigger. One or two twitches and it was done. Number two was a short range broadside shot like the last cup & core deer. This was now the 110gr TTSX (handloaded). Bullet made a caliber-sized entrance and exit wounds but everything in between was red heart/lung jello. Bang/flop. Shot placement was virtually identical to the last cup & core deer, but the heart was more dramatically affected. Number three was the neck/spined one. Bang/flop of course, but any bullet would have done the same, likely.

So, not a large sample size. I'm sure the NP would perform pretty much the same, maybe better in some respects (rapid fragmentation) but perhaps "worse" in others from my perspective (lead in the meat, slightly more bloodshot meat). Since bullet cost is a wash and performance so far has been excellent (and accuracy is great for me so far) I'll stick with the TTSX for now. If I wanted to hunt at longer ranges where the impact speeds are marginal for the TTSX to expand I'd probably switch to NPs for that hunt.

 

[Barnes_270]

Your honesty says a lot and now I fully understand where you are coming from. One thing I can assure you is if you had of tried partitions over the years you also would have seen wonderful results but regardless dead is dead....

The main reason I use the Partition is because it is a bullet designed for hunting and proven over many many years. It has never let me down. The monolithics bullets to me are the result of an anti-hunting movement to outlaw lead bullets. The monolithics were NOT designed to be a better hunting bullet but as a quick response to anti's and the banning of lead in other countries. Even if they someday prove to be better than my old partitions I will NOT support that movement by using any monolithics until required to do so by law and at my age those odds are slim. Enjoyed the debate
All the best

Yes, if the TTSX didn't exist, I'd be using the NP, to be sure. And yes, I fully support the right of hunters to use lead or copper as they choose! Happy hunting, and thanks for the exchange.

 

[Barnes_270]

Partitions are expensive to make. They are usually the same price or more as Barnes bullets. I used partitions extensively for years and they almost always worked. I had a weird experience with them when they got stopped by the spine of a big bear at close range. Broke the spine, but I think a TSX would have broke the spine and penetrated. Otherwise I was mostly pleased with their performance. They chew up more meat than all copper bullets, though.

I've had more bang flops from TSX bullets than Partitions too.

I think it's the screw/twist action that the TTSX has upon expansion that really shocks the animal - watch the TTSX in ballistic gelatin if you haven't seen it. Quite the sight.

I guess it goes to show that no bullet is ideal for all circumstances - each has strengths and weakness that a particular shot might reveal (or not). That said, I don't think I'd ever go back to cup & core even if the lead issue wasn't part of the equation - even a Remington Core-Lokt would be a step up from the standard fare...

 

[Andrzej]

I am hunting with Barnes since they were released in late eighties.

I think that with introduction of modern high velocity magnums we've created situation that lead cup and core bullets would not handle well.
Fragmentation of those would contribute to higher level of contamination of venison as compared with meat shot with lead slugs at slower velocity.

There is no doubts that lead shot venison contains lead. What is questionable is if ingesting venison contaminated with lead is increasing lead level in bloodstream.
Someone in this thread posted link to study that proves that it does:

"We fed fragment-containing venison to four pigs to test bioavailability; four controls received venison without fragments from the same deer. Mean blood lead concentrations in pigs peaked at 2.29 µg/dL (maximum 3.8 µg/dL) 2 days following ingestion of fragment-containing venison, significantly higher than the 0.63 µg/dL averaged by controls. We conclude that people risk exposure to bioavailable lead from bullet fragments when they eat venison from deer killed with standard lead-based rifle bullets and processed under normal procedures. At risk in the U.S. are some ten million hunters, their families, and low-income beneficiaries of venison donations."


I am not going to shoot my venison with lead.


As to Partition I've tried it in my rifles and never could make them to group well despite reloading. I think that relatively large exposed lead nose varies a lots from each other...I prefer plastic tip now.

TTSX for hunting SST for plinking.

If you don't like TSX, TTSX don't forget others Hornady GMX, Nosler E-Tip,
Custom GS to name a few.

Have a safe and successful hunting season and lead free venison for the table.

 

[duber]

This is a great thread. Glad I asked the question. Keep all the opinions coming guys. I'm still unsure which I will use but this may be a case of me trying both to gain my own real life experience with each. Sense they shoot indentcally out of my rifle it won't be a big deal to switch back and forth. Im leaning towards using the partition for moose and the ttsx on deer. I won't get many chances in my life to shoot a moose so it seems to make sense to go with the old faithfull for moose and then do some real life testing on the white tails.

 

[Barnes_270]

This is a great thread. Glad I asked the question. Keep all the opinions coming guys.

Ha! No shortage of opinions around here

Besides, it's only a slightly more contentious question than the old 30-06 vs 308 one

One more thought - try'em both out at longer range if you can. It might be that one groups better than the other but that the difference is too small to see at the moderate range you've tried them at. See how they group at 300 yards (focus on vertical spread).

 

[hawk-i]

Well when you shoot a deer with a lead bullet, I'm pretty sure the lead does NOT spread through the complete animal...normally any bloody traumatized tissue is trimed off and discarded...that is unless you are feeding pigs with it.
A little common sense goes a long way!!!! but sometimes seems to be in VERY short supply!!
cheers

 

[1899]

As to Partition I've tried it in my rifles and never could make them to group well despite reloading. I think that relatively large exposed lead nose varies a lots from each other...I prefer plastic tip now.

The squares are 1"x1"

 

[Barnes_270]

Well when you shoot a deer with a lead bullet, I'm pretty sure the lead does NOT spread through the complete animal...normally any bloody traumatized tissue is trimed off and discarded...that is unless you are feeding pigs with it.
A little common sense goes a long way!!!! but sometimes seems to be in VERY short supply!!
cheers

Common sense is generally a decent guide, but for some things it can be very misleading. Quantum mechanics, for example, is completely outside what one would expect from common sense, yet there is very good evidence for it.

One of the main findings from actual research in this area (using radiography to scan carcasses, et cetera) is that even if it looks fine it may well have lead fragments in it, and it often does. I'll take the X-ray evidence over conjecture any day. Again, there is debate about what is a "safe" level of lead, etc - but the fact that lead bullets spread lead fragments fairly widely in the carcass is not in dispute - it's been demonstrated.

 

[1899]

Ha! No shortage of opinions around here

Besides, it's only a slightly more contentious question than the old 30-06 vs 308 one

One more thought - try'em both out at longer range if you can. It might be that one groups better than the other but that the difference is too small to see at the moderate range you've tried them at. See how they group at 300 yards (focus on vertical spread).

Thank goodness it has remained a civil discussion!

 

[Barnes_270]

The squares are 1"x1"

Nice shooting. Hope you didn't eat the target. (j/k)

 

[1899]

Nice shooting. Hope you didn't eat the target. (j/k)

No, it was contaminated by lead!

 

[hawk-i]

Common sense is generally a decent guide, but for some things it can be very misleading. Quantum mechanics, for example, is completely outside what one would expect from common sense, yet there is very good evidence for it.

One of the main findings from actual research in this area (using radiography to scan carcasses, et cetera) is that even if it looks fine it may well have lead fragments in it, and it often does. I'll take the X-ray evidence over conjecture any day. Again, there is debate about what is a "safe" level of lead, etc - but the fact that lead bullets spread lead fragments fairly widely in the carcass is not in dispute - it's been demonstrated.

Quantum mechanic, radiography scanning, X-ray evidence, yep I'm pretty sure you are one of those people that should stick to non-lead bullets. I haven't seen or heard of anyone being Diagnosed with lead poisoning in my family or group of friends, or heard of a friend of a friend, or an uncle of a friend, or a once removed second cousin of a friend,.... see where I'm going with this?
cheers