Hi everyone, I have a savage model 12 chambered in 204 . The powder I am using is H4895 with Federal Match primers. I have been shooting 5 shot groups. The first 5 shot group with a clean barrel will always be under 3/8" the second group will always be a little larger 1/2' or so by the third group it will open up over and inch. I let the barrel cool down for 15 min between each 5 shot group. If I clean the barrel after each 5 shot group It will shot 3/8" groups one after another. I have never had a rifle that needed to be cleaned so often to keep good accuracy , all my other rifle will shoot 30 pluss rounds before accuracy drops off. Do I just have a crappy barrel or may there be some other problem? Any help would be appreciated
Question about clean barrel vs dirty barrel accuarcy
- Thread starter r204
- Start date
It sounds like the barrel needs 'breaking in'... something many do not agree with...
you will have to start with a clean barrel. By clean I mean no copper fouling at all...
then it is a matter of firing one shot and clean,
fire one shot and clean,
repeat this procedure for a total of 20 shots,
then test the grouping and see if it has improved.
some factory barrels may never 'break in'...
you will have to start with a clean barrel. By clean I mean no copper fouling at all...
then it is a matter of firing one shot and clean,
fire one shot and clean,
repeat this procedure for a total of 20 shots,
then test the grouping and see if it has improved.
some factory barrels may never 'break in'...
Thanks for your reply Guntech, I bought the gun used and the seller told me that it had aprox 100 rounds through it and that he had broken the barrel in similar to your procedure. Right now it prob has 300 rounds or so through it. So would it be of any benifit to redo the breakin procedure?
What model 12 do you have?
How do you clean your rifle right now? What solvent? Do you brush it?
If you are having heavy fouling problems pick up some JB bore paste/cleaner. Its just a polishing compound. Rub some on a patch and scrub your bore. It doesn't take very much to change how its going to foul.
My M12 LRPV in 204 ruger doesn't foul much at all. I can shoot 50 rounds with out any issues. It was this way from new.
Have you tried to find a load that works well in a dirty barrel? When I was load testing I found loads that shot well in a clean barrel but not so well in a dirty barrel.
FWIW, Todd Hodnett from Accuracy 1st has an opinion on the subject which you may or may not agree with...
Watch this clip from "Art of the Precision Rifle"
Fly
Watch this clip from "Art of the Precision Rifle"
Fly
I have a model 12 BTCSS . I clean the carbon out with M-Pro 7 and Sweet's 7.62 for copper fouling. First I remove the carbon with the M-Pro 7 ( wet patch followed by a couple of dry patches then repeat untill patches come out clean. I have used a bore brush but only every 3 or forth cleaning) I then use the Sweet's ( wet patch followed by dry patches and repeat until all copper is removed. I then run another patch with M-Pro 7 and then dry patches untill the bore is dry. I have tried upping the powder charge and lowering it but it doesn't make any differance the only thing that seems to make a differance is cleaning the barrel.
Since your not brushing maybe don't try JB bore paste yet. Try brushing every time you clean.
Brush your barrel every time you clean, or not at all. The way you clean should be the same every time.
I'm not overly shy with brushing my barrels. The brush gets pushed through from breech to muzzle and then unscrewed. I don't pull it back through.
How much copper are you getting? Its hard to see into a 20cal barrel, but are you seeing any copper?
I will try brushing everytime I clean and see how that works but I doubt it will make any differance because when I do use a brush for cleaning the results at the range are the same (first couple of groups are good then they start to open up.) I have looked down the bore before cleaning and I don't see any cooper and I have looked down it after I have cleaned the carbon out and there isn't any noticable copper. It will ussually only take 2 applications of Sweet's to remove all the copper after 10 or 15 shots But if I shoot 20 or 30 shots then it takes 4 or 5 aplications of Sweet's to remove it all. I forgot to mention that I use a bore guide and clean from the breach
- Location
- Beaverlodge, Alberta
I have been seeing the exact same thing from my model 12 FCV in 223. I load 24.3gr of ramshot tac in nosler brass, cci 400's(I think) and sierra 65sbt's. Powder shows great ladder all the way up to max so I chose max. But the group size is exactly the same no matter how much powder I use. I've had the rifle a couple weeks and have fired about 150rnds. I brushed the barrel and used hoppes for the first cleaning. Got about 50rds out of it and decided the groups were opening. Cleaned it with wipe out, two applications, last being the 12hr variety. Patched clean. Went out yesterday and tried 22.5g (appeared to be an accuracy node on ladder test) of tac with a short COAL and long COAL, no difference in grouping. Also tried 24.3 with long and short OAL, no change. What I did see was that I got 2 flyers from clean bore followed by a very nice 1/2" eight shot hole. Then they opened to about 1" and stayed there the rest of the day.
I have a theory, whether it has merit or not I'll test later (I'm happy with 1" for right now). My Dad has a 7mmRM BAR. He tried shooting 150's out of it and he had 4" groups @100. Went to 175s and it tightened up a LOT. My father in law, different rifle (bolt) but same chambering had the exact same results. I wonder if the 65s just don't like the 1-9 barrel? Maybe 70-75g is the answer here?
My fav shop doesn't have any bullets in that range at the moment or I'd try them just to see.
Any input from any of you more experienced guys?
I have a theory, whether it has merit or not I'll test later (I'm happy with 1" for right now). My Dad has a 7mmRM BAR. He tried shooting 150's out of it and he had 4" groups @100. Went to 175s and it tightened up a LOT. My father in law, different rifle (bolt) but same chambering had the exact same results. I wonder if the 65s just don't like the 1-9 barrel? Maybe 70-75g is the answer here?
My fav shop doesn't have any bullets in that range at the moment or I'd try them just to see.
Any input from any of you more experienced guys?
It sounds like you have a rough factory barrel and it may only stop fowling after many more shots , or not.
Do a bit of searching about fire lapping , some guys are claiming great results on barrels that seem to do what yours is doing.
The reason your barrel is copper fowling so much is one of 2 reasons it's either to rough or way to smooth which I highly doubt.
Barrels that are way to smooth will gall and copper fowl just like a rough one will.
Do a bit of searching about fire lapping , some guys are claiming great results on barrels that seem to do what yours is doing.
The reason your barrel is copper fowling so much is one of 2 reasons it's either to rough or way to smooth which I highly doubt.
Barrels that are way to smooth will gall and copper fowl just like a rough one will.
well I was at the range a couple of times over the weekend and this is what transpired. I started out with a clean barrel ( all copper and carbon was removed) I shot a 3/8" 5 shot group. I waited 15 min before shooting the next 5 shot group. the second group was 1/2" I waited another 15 for the barrel to cool and shot another 5 shot group the first 2 shots were almost touching then the next 3 opend the group up to 1 1/2 inches. I then cleaned the carbon out of the barrel using M-Pro 7 it only took 2 wet patches and 5 dry patches to get all the carbon out. I then first another 5 shot group 4 of the shots were within 2" and one was about 2 inches away from the first four. I fired another 5 shot group and well the group measurd 9 inches. I cleaned the gun when I got home and it took 7 patches soaked with sweets and numerous dry patches in between to get all the copper out. I am convinced now that I have a garbage barrel. The only thing I might try before ordering a new barrel is to maybe try fire lapping it and see what happens. Lord knows I can't screw that barrel up any worse than it already is. I guess I learned my lesson on buying a used gun.
no I haven't tried anything on it yet . As far as warranty goes this is an older model 12 I beleive because the action screw spacing is 4.27 and the new ones are 4.4 or something. I bought it used off the EE about 18 months ago I fired 10 rounds through it to test ( I guess I should have shot more than that) and it sat in the safe untill this spring . So I doubt if Savage will do any warrantie for me now.
I have taked to a few of the bench rest guys at my local range and recomend fire lapping considering how bad it is and most of them have said even that is a shot in the dark and prob new barrel would be my best bet.
I have taked to a few of the bench rest guys at my local range and recomend fire lapping considering how bad it is and most of them have said even that is a shot in the dark and prob new barrel would be my best bet.
Mystic Precision
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Summerland, BC
Load tune with a dirty barrel.
Jerry
Jerry
I relize that but the dirtier the barrel get the worse it shoots I have run factory rounds as well as reloads through that barrel and after around 30 shots I can't even hit 8"x11" target at 100 yrds , clean the barrel and it shoots well again then opens up wider and wider as the barrel gets fouled.
